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THUNDERBIRDS

Sightings of bigfoot, lake monsters around the world, and the chupacabras are just some of the many cryptozoological stories on the rise! Although many of these stories are controversial - some have evidence that defies belief.

Postby sandra » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:39 am

Part 1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym45DXW1JFg
Part 2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAfUp7duqec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FKGaOppCfg
This one is from animal planet, states scientists had concluded a 3 yr old child at one time was killed by a large bird, It would be interesting to find an article of this incident. The story is known in Indian Country however I have never known any details, just that it was a yound child supposedly taken by a large bird, didn't know scientists had proven it to be true.

Makes you question why something like that would happen, what supernatural reasons?
In the videos above they also depict the thunderbird as a vengeful hunter, and a more fierce being, not so much a protector or holy figure like I believe they are.

I'll be checking for several other videos, see what I can find.


The main thing to remember when dealing with a teratorn is that genetically speaking many species carry their older codes and for whatever reason the old codes are either switched off and/or partially missing. This means occasionally old traits resurface in species. In the case of Teratorns is they have living descendents some of these codes may get reactivated from time to time hypotetically, allowing larger individuals of a current species appear from time. If over time the descendents of such species immigrated north eventually it would not be unusual to find the old traits reappear. Think of them as recessive genes unless the parents of recessive gene have almost similar set old codes the offspring will not activate those codes, and even then one slight variation might not allow those codes to activate.


Hmmm. So in short are you suggesting different gene expression? Not necessarily more or less evolved? Yet some of these larger birds could possibly be linked genetically as the same species? Just some genes are dormant in others and active in others differentiating them? And some codes could be reactivated at times? (didn't make that in short, did I? :mrgreen: ) hmm that gives a whole different perspective thinking about all of that. No surprise that makes me contemplate some older legends of the thunder bird -It is said that Medicine Men shape shifted into Thunder Birds, or thunder birds were associated with that mystical power of shape shifting. I'm going to look for one of those articles. Funny how your above explanation can totally relate to that, from my perspective it does.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
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“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
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Postby sandra » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:52 am

Though the Thunderbird myth varied from region to region and tribe to tribe, the Thunderbird was, in the eyes of the ancient Native Americans, a magical animal that was sent by their gods to protect them from the powers of evil.

Native Americans believed that these giant birds brought thunder and rain with them as they flew through the air by flapping their wings, and lightning by closing their eyes.

Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder is its wings clapping, sheet lightning is the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts are glowing snakes that it carries with it.
Other native Indians believed that thunderbirds belonged to a special tribe whose members were able to shapeshift to human form by tilting back their beak as if it were only a mask, and by removing their feathers as if it were a feather-covered blanket.

There are stories of thunderbirds in human form marrying into human families; some families may trace their lineage to such an event. Families of thunderbirds who kept to themselves but wore human form were said to have lived along the northern tip of Vancouver Island. The story goes that other tribes soon forgot the nature of one of these thunderbird families, and when one tribe tried to take them as slaves the thunderbirds put on their feather blankets and transformed to take vengeance upon their foolish captors.

http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Thunderbird

That slightly touches on Shape Shifting, But I must be able to find something better than that.
Some of the info was of use on this site, as far as its amasing how diverse the beliefs of thunderbirds are, even varying so much from tribe to tribe of the Native People alone. Didn't know some tribes thought the water was an enemy of the thunderbird, and that when passing the thunderbird would create lightening over the waters for protection from the water spirits.
And alot of tribes believe the thunderbird travels bringing the storms, being more one with the storms.hmm
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Postby Aquatank » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:43 am

Native Americans believed that these giant birds brought thunder and rain with them as they flew through the air by flapping their wings, and lightning by closing their eyes.


This is where things get interesting on the folklore side. On the observable side we can view it as big birds catch storm thermals just ahead of storms thus, if we see a lot of soaring birds in the sky it might be viewed a as prelim/omen of an on coming storm. Yet the interesting folklore connection is Asian dragons brought rain and storms as well. The problem is for somereason some folklorists have been having meshing things and placing Thunderbird & Quetzalcoatl into the global image of dragons. That's like calling a Roc a dragon. IMHO in Quetzalcoatl's case it might actually have more to do a longship or knarr from Vinland trading down the coasts for the 10 or more years the Norse were looking at the continents (this is lightly supported by a dubious September 2003 by claim by Dr. Theo Valdivik & Professor Svenson. I've yet to find more confirmation since. http://www.lochness.co.uk/exhibition/viking.html .)
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Postby sandra » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:57 pm

SNAKES, SERPENTS, DRAGONS
AND THUNDERBIRDS


The dragon evolved from the serpent as an icon of the elders and spiritual teachers of the Earth Mother religion. This was the symbol of the druids, vates and bards. In Native American traditions, clans of the Holy Men were often called the Snake clan. In Ireland, the dragon was less stylized and retained the appearance of a snake or serpent. Fire breathing dragons in particular have been source for numerous folk tales. Sadly we must report that the tales of Dragon slayers are little more than disguised stories that relate directly to the murders of Druids, priests and dedicated followers of the Earth Mother religion. Today we call this genocide, but under the authority of the time, it was an accepted practice to eliminate competetive philosophies. The direct relationship of fire and an obviously reptillian animal ties together two items of importance with an ancient origin. Fire and the ability to make fire were considered gifts to the wise. Anyone who could construct a fire was gifted with a special knowledge. Simultaneous within this era was a true and honest fascination of animals that reproduced by laying eggs. Humans have long witnessed the births of mammals and knew about impregnation, gestation and live birth from several hundred millennia of observation and notation. Mankind was well aware of its mammilian origins long before the word appeared in language.

Birds were held in very high regard because of the ability to fly which was assumed to be an ability to commune with the Sky Father, or the Creator. Birds, lizards, turtles and snakes are all egg layers with very few exceptions. All these animals were held in very special reverence. This fact has excaped notice of modern scholars and has received little or no attention.

The primary Celtic diety, Lugh, had shrines and monuments throughout Europe prior to Roman times. Little reference material is available. As a competitive religion, resource material has been culled from the records by Christian authorities. As a theocratic government, it directed the destruction of physical existence. It is reported by some Celtic scholars that his images were often accompanied by a cock, a turtle and a ram. Two of the three are egg layers and the third is an icon of the era, Aries; the Ram.

What demonstrates this line of thought clearly is examination of an image constructed to represent a dragon. More often than not, it is drawn as a large reptile with wings. We accept the wings without question, but to the ancients this was important. Wings indicated an ability to fly. The sky was understood to be the realm of the Sky Father or Creator. Any animal that could fly was deemed able to commune with this spirit. This is why Angels, Harpies, Griffons, Spinxes and Pegasus all have wings. This philosophy is also why flying carpets exist in Arab legend and mythology. All promote the idea that flight and a special communion with sky spirits, a supernatural power, coexist. An example of this fascination exists in the translation of the Phaistos Disk where the fate of an individual was determined by the behavior of a flock of flying birds.

The North American Native tradition of the Thunderbird fits into this scheme as well. Consider what event is precedent to thunder. If you came up with lightning, a brilliant flash of light you are correct. Lightning was equated into fire of the brightest kind, or true enlightenment. This in turn, worked out to be wisdom. Anyone who could speak with a "voice of Thunder" was not speaking loudly. He was speaking with the gifts of the enlightened. The Thunderbird was their substitute for the fire breathing dragon.

One rock art researcher came up with the fact that the elders referred to some snake figures as lightning snakes. He wrongly assumed this had to do with a rain dance ceremony or prayers for rain. When the icons are examined with knowledge and application of proper metaphor, they too, work out to be of the same genera as dragons.

For the most part, this discussion has dealt with items from European and North American origin. It must be noted that the Asian dragon exists with remarkably similar features to the European icon. Missing are the destructive aspects of mythology. In Asia, the dragon has not been subject to the derogatory Christian reworking of the icon and retains the feature of an item related to good rather than evil. Mexican dragons exist as well, but I lack the database to properly deal with them. Perhaps some readers will enlighten us.

http://www.equinox-project.com/drago.htm
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Postby sandra » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:01 pm

Aquatank wrote:This is where things get interesting on the folklore side. On the observable side we can view it as big birds catch storm thermals just ahead of storms thus, if we see a lot of soaring birds in the sky it might be viewed a as prelim/omen of an on coming storm. Yet the interesting folklore connection is Asian dragons brought rain and storms as well. The problem is for somereason some folklorists have been having meshing things and placing Thunderbird & Quetzalcoatl into the global image of dragons. That's like calling a Roc a dragon.


Yes again, I was not aware of this. Thanks again. When I found some more information on this, I had to post the whole article, got kind of excited. Really did not know Thunderbirds had been tied in so closely with dragons, other birds besides eagles, Quetzalcoatl, other legends and folklore, and possibly mistaken for one another !! I'll be doing alot more research into this, the history is amasing.... :)
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Postby sandra » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:19 pm

Well I shouldn't use the word mistaken with all of them, more like what you said 'meshed' in. The different bird species could definitely be mistaken though. hmm Maybe the dragon as well...they have said thunderbirds can appear having a gargoyle looking face and feautures, lol oh goodness aquatank. :mrgreen:
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
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Postby Aquatank » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:09 am

Found these claims
http://mysteriousearth.com/thunderbird- ... nd-legend/

One of the claims I keep reading in stuff is "it looked like a prehistoric bird" to me that only brings up two species to mind.
Archaeopteryx and flightless axe-beak birds/Phorusrhacids like Titanis walleri

That being said my current hypothetical animal would be about a 15-20 foot wing span, realtivly short necked standing 4-4.5 feet tall in a normal stance (not reared up) from tip of beak to end of last tail feather would be 7 to 10 feet in flight about 1/2 to 3/4 that on the ground (about the length of a Smartcar maybe as tall) It'd be black possibly with grey. Probably with an abnormally large beak bigger than a turkey buzzards especiallially in beak height and a large amount of very colorfull knobbly skin that may partially cover the beak. The beak might even include 3/16" serrations like teeth. It would also have large shaggy feathered upper thighs and powerfull looking calves with strong toes and talons. Or thats atleast what I'd be looking for. I'd also be looking for a good spot to photograph such a an animal with good photo reference points to get a good size estimate out of to prevent misidentification. a confirmable 2 feet from any vehicle in the for ground would be great.
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Postby Aquatank » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:23 am

I made up this quickie pastie of a hypothetical thunderbird. Hope no photographers mind, its just for size comparrison.
Attachments
HYP.JPG
HYP.JPG (19.16 KiB) Viewed 1330 times
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Postby sandra » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:01 pm

Aquatank, that is a neat picture for comparison. For some reason I see them as a light to medium grey color, maybe because I think they travel alot through storms and with the clouds. Yeah I have read people comparing them to prehistoric birds as well, there is more to learn about that I feel. Things that are not discovered yet, or well known. I like that site you linked. Read most of the stories, and one of them really caught my attention. A woman mentioned about hoping someone would find one of these mega feathers, from a Thunderbird.- That would be awesome. I've found eagle feathers before, and the feeling of it presses my use of intuition. To find a thunderbird feather would be amasing, and now I am wondering if there have even been any claims of that. Most people are not trotting around at the elevation levels thunderbirds might be living, or in caves far off I imagine.

Should we take a hike? LOL

What do you mean by serrations like teeth for its beak? Kind of curious of that description.
Thats interesting that you imagine the beak very colorful, what reason would that be for having a colorful beak I wonder? I'm just thinking of how those things could relate to some of the mysticism behind the Thunderbird. hmmm
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
User avatar
sandra
 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:27 pm
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Postby Aquatank » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:51 am

The colorful beak is something that I think older sightings describing a prehistoric bird might have partially derived from, movies and books used to have birds like Titanis in the sometime colorful beak, usually red black and yellow. Also it could be a form of courtship display in an otherwise mostly dark animal. My coloration of the body is an assumption my part of camoulflage, firstly to hide it in the night sky grey clouds relative black background. Secondly it allows the bird to be mistaken for a turkey buzzard by humans and prey alike, reducing its chances of being hunted and increasing its chances to sucessfully hunt. All the bird would have to do is fly at higher altitude than the buzzards to seem the same size, and it would fool the prey. If sufficient altitude was gained it could fool the buzzards and steal their dinner by surprising them and driving them away like many apex predators do.

As for serrartions, if you've ever looked at a an open mouth duck or goose you've probably noticed the bumps on the inside in teeth-like rows.
Heres some links to pics I could find of that
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenniferboyer/210265929/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nio_nl/3536686520/

and then there is the teeth of the extinct Ichthyornis.
http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Ichthyornis.html

Now finding a mega-feather that could be tricky. You'd probably have to find a fresh kill where there was a struggle, tough if its using dive to stun and a quick snapping of the neck and skull. Or you'd have to find its nest, a dangerous prospect. The problem after a quick look for this is large flying birds don't grow feathers fast enough so they have built in biological strategies to keep what they have.
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=5373

If I were to go looking for a Thunderbird, I'd go with finding what I would hypothesize its hunting ground is. Currently thats somewhere above 4000ft with lots of mountain goats, rabbits, oppossums, racoons, and ground hogs, partially rocky with plenty of grazing grasses. It should be within reach of caves or large inaccesible cracks in mountains. I don't think a large bird like this would survive this long without hiding its nest, and protecting its kills and chicks from other predators. If my coloration is right such an underground nest would allow it not to be spotted as a dark contrast to otherwise light surroundings. After finding a sutible location near potential prey I'd set up a camera traps preferably with no flash photography (don't want to spook the birds into leaving their habitat) that would mean night vision and thermal imagery linked to a long range motion sensor and with someway to power it for weeks (a timer only being set for night would conserve power) and have plenty film memory space. If it were possible for auto-focus zoom that would help as would full motion video. There should be cameras filming the primary kill zone. Their should be some set up in ways to get proper reference points for size estimates, and their should be a few pointing skywards.

If I was to go after Sasquatch much of this would be similar but the cameras would be on a silent unmmanned aerial vehicle such as a blimp allowing real time control. Speaking of which that cabin the Sasquatch don't like people to inhabit would be a good place to set up such a watch.

Now after confirming a Thunderbird with Camera traps, it might be possible to scout its kills looking for feather, and if it was a regular in the area then it might be possible to track it with a UAV find its lair and set up recorders for research.

My main problem with all this however is a bird that large is smart, possibly dog smart and with a beak that large it could have senses of smell greater than a buzzards. For me this means it can smell humans easilly and avoid them entirely. For research this means camoulflaging all human scent on equipment and personel from the get go, and avoiding checking camera traps for long periods of time (ever see a Thylacine nose? They probably smell our equipment and avoid the area same with Thunderbirds). This is the main problem with these ghost/monster hunter shows there is no longterm observation without a human prescence in the area. Getting the right footage and evidence on cryptids requires extreme stealth. Getting a Camera into a Thunderbird nest probably means putting the cameras under a rotting piece of opossum roadkill in the hot summer for days, as well as all your gear, in addition to climbing someplace in accessible at night and hoping mama doesn't come home and daddy isn't watching the nest.

Anyway thats my thinking on this today.
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