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What is Right & Wrong, Our Laws, and what are Sins?

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby Cole_Trickle » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 am

adamwarlock2099 wrote:I forgot laws. Laws are pretty much as far from what is percieved as "right" and "wrong" that is ridiculous. Laws are made on assumptions as to what is "right" and "wrong". But who is that makes these decision on this basis. Men?

For instance, murder is wrong. However abortion and capital punishment are acceptable. Am I to tell my sons then that murder is wrong, but there are exceptions, just because US government law says so? No. I tell him why I think all murder is unacceptable. It's his choice to decide if he agrees with me or not.

Law is one of those things that has good intentions but doesn't always deliver for the benefit of all involved.



This is an excellent post, one I can completely agree with. For Capital punishment the old term Two wrongs don't make a right, so they call it Justice in order to justify the term " Capital Punishment " along with other forms of penalty under the law. What gets lost is the fact that that justice is far too often the product of not only " WHAT YOU ARE " but " WHO YOU ARE " and of course, how much money you have for defense, lawyers, appeals ETC.

Just an example.

When I think of abortion many things come to mind about right vs wrong as it is with millions of people, that's why it's alive and well in the MSM. It's a tool to be used to influence the conscience of the people, they could care less about the Two involved, just the big picture. That, in my opinion, is completely wrong.

Many people hide behind the walls of public opinion and the Law of the land, some are better at it than others ever could be. So I'll be interested in the response to the " responding posts " generated by the original question that began this thread and how quickly someone says: Well so and so wrote this, and so and so said this so you need to rethink how you feel. :lol: :lol: You know it's coming, it's just a matter of time.

You've been married to a wonder woman for 10 years, she's the light of your life and pregnant with your child. During delivery there is an unexpected complication and the Doc tells you that he will only be able to save one: " What shall you have him/her do?" What would be right and what would be wrong? What law shall you turn to, what faith, any common sense or simply leave it to fate?

I once asked the above of a man who was against abortion, deeply religious, and as hardheaded as they come. He would only say that the question was " UNFAIR " and " UNREALISTIC " When I pushed for what he would do under that kind of gun he became furious
and would only say that he wouldn't have to worry about that because he and his wife could not have any more children. I said OKAY put your son in that position, what advice would you give him, what would you tell him to do?

Always remember: " You never know how you look until you get your picture took " :lol:

Talk about a guy who combusted right before my eyes. I guess an honest real life question was more than he could bear.

Cole
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Postby greeney2 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:53 am

Cole, whenever the issue becomes personal and right in your lap, everything takes on a different perspective. Thats a good question to the anti abortion guy, who claims to have no tolerance for any abortion situation. However, why ask him, its the wifes total decision as the womans choice? We all will end up with decisions someday of ethical nature like life support, or if you serve on juries maybe deciding the death penalty. Neither make you a murderer.

We have many conflicts in our system between right and wrong, what is considered sin, and our laws. Many social rights and wrongs today, we argue are considered sins, and in some cases against the our law. And those laws differ between states. Questions about "consenting adults" are in our laws and are a conflict with religious teachings, as to who they are right an wrong for. Clearly most major laws like murder and stealing also are spelled out in religions, and considered right or wrong universally. Others are not too clear, or have degrees or intent as a criteria, like the intent defining degrees of murder. Many, like gay issues totally conflict with defintions of sin, and total meaing or right or wrong is not the same for you or myself, decideing those issues.

So if your same abortion question became personal to you, but instead waterboarding was the issue, would save that same wife and child she did have, how passionate would you feel about right or wrong yourself. Would the law be violated, if it in fact even violated any law, or would you disregard it all to save your loved one? When the Mormans all forgave the mass murderer of the school kids without blinking an eye, you can see we have both extreems of perspective in this country. We have one extreem to the other and all the shades of grey in the middle when it comes to our laws, right and wrong, and when we are taught are sins. Most of them end up delemias for the Surpreme Courts to inturpet. The extreems and inturpitation of many issues is not easy and juggles these concepts around.
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Postby Cole_Trickle » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:39 am

Water-boarding is a very poor analogy when it comes to abortion. My personal thoughts or opinions are irrelevant simply because I do not consider SIN a legitimate line in the sand between wrong and right. I'm more of a critical thinker as opposed to the majority of those who would consider Drinking beer, or pre-marital sex a sin. Even though they engage in both in their private lives only to denounce them while in Church, or in the public eye. There are too many to list who have traveled that path while critical of those like me. There's a word for those types, is there not?

Who has the right to determine what Sin is, who has sinned, and to what level, or to what degree? Are some sins bigger than others, or do they all fall under the same umbrella meaning A sin is a sin, regardless of intent?

Right is right and wrong is wrong, the distinction between the two is more clouded today/Gray if you will, because of " SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS " which get coupled with the brainwashing techniques of those in control of the world. It's the way they want it, yet despite that I'm pretty sure that there are still millions of people walking the Earth who, without doubt, know right from wrong given any situation.

A better analogy from you perspective would be if My Wife or child was kidnapped and the Police had the guy who did it in custody, or better yet, I had tracked him down and captured him myself. Now your line of though may have some merit since the situation as a whole has been boiled down to the personal level.

Maybe this situation if handled properly would save my wife or child, but maybe not. Either way he won't leave my control until I have them back either alive or dead, preferably alive of course. I doubt very very seriously that under that circumstance any action on behalf can consciously be determined as a sin. Only those who have been conditioned would ever have such a thought even cross their minds. JMHO

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Postby adamwarlock2099 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:30 pm

Cole_Trickle wrote:
You've been married to a wonder woman for 10 years, she's the light of your life and pregnant with your child. During delivery there is an unexpected complication and the Doc tells you that he will only be able to save one: " What shall you have him/her do?" What would be right and what would be wrong? What law shall you turn to, what faith, any common sense or simply leave it to fate?

I once asked the above of a man who was against abortion, deeply religious, and as hardheaded as they come. He would only say that the question was " UNFAIR " and " UNREALISTIC " When I pushed for what he would do under that kind of gun he became furious
and would only say that he wouldn't have to worry about that because he and his wife could not have any more children. I said OKAY put your son in that position, what advice would you give him, what would you tell him to do?

Always remember: " You never know how you look until you get your picture took " :lol:

Talk about a guy who combusted right before my eyes. I guess an honest real life question was more than he could bear.

Cole


I actually came so close to having to make that decision myself for real. Our first son was 14 weeks premature and endangered the life of my wife, as she went into premature labor. I was told that there was a possibility that my wife could be harmed or even die if he was allowed to be born vaginally. So they were going to do a c-section, even though that still didn't change that possibility. So I had in my mind what the decision I had to make, because in the seconds after he was lifted from my wife's body, were the most critical and she would not be conscious to make that decision herself.

It's silly of him to tell you that your question was unfair. Life is unfair. You can't go crying about it. Two possible lives could be in danger and you're going to say it's unfair. Would you let the child be born for fear that you would be considered a murder of the child and let your wife die too in the process?

There are decisions that we have to make in life that are above the concepts of right, wrong, the law and that silly thing called sin. Whether there is a supreme intelligence that will judge me for my actions, I will not let two lives be snuffed out for my ignorance or attachments to man's concept of what is right and wrong. For the simple reason that no one on this earth has to live with the decision that I might have had to make that day quite to the level that I would have had to.

As far as what I would, or did in fact turn to that day, when I contemplated my decision should that situation have arose, logic. Faith and fate are silly concepts to me. They cloud judgement and make people make rash decisions based on something that in my opinion doesn't exist. Law only helps the rich and faith only serves the "righteous". I am neither of those. Fate is man's why of explaining why hundreds of people just vanished in that airplane recently. It's not fate, there is a reason and an explanation. I'd just assume not rely on crutches like faith and fate.

But then I am a bitter person.
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Postby adamwarlock2099 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:38 pm

greeney2 wrote:However, why ask him, its the wifes total decision as the womans choice? We all will end up with decisions someday of ethical nature like life support, or if you serve on juries maybe deciding the death penalty. Neither make you a murderer.


There are situations where a wife may not be able to make that call, as happened to my wife and I. If that is the case, are you going to let someone else decide for you? And if you do, then whatever judgement you want to place on that person for deciding either the wife or child, still resides with that person through their lack of wanting to make it themselves. Some things you can't avoid and have to decide for yourself. Personally, I wouldn't want it to be on my conscious because I shrinked from my responsibility as a husband and father.

Yes, you will, and again, if the party hasn't expressed their wishes before they may have been put in that state, then there is someone that has to decide whether they "live" on a machine, or they die. But just as the above case, no one can judge them for that. Though many will. Cowardice is a surprisingly natural tendency for human beings. It's easy to judge someone when we are not faced with that decision, whether it be masked by the appalling disguise of religion or one's own self righteous attitude.

Some of these situations can be avoided. As far as being on a jury or a death penalty trail . . . no one can make you participate. At least as a US citizen, you can consciously object that you don't want to be responsible for the life of another human. Which is exactly what I would do.
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Postby Cole_Trickle » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:25 am

adam,

I'd be careful with your logic/common sense approach to reality, it makes too much sense. You're obviously well versed, intelligent, and above all, grounded in your beliefs. Some around here look down upon such virtues, which I deem to be part of the show so transparent and such a Pity.

I concur with your thoughts.

Thanks for posting. :)

best,

Cole
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Postby Halfabo » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:22 am

Cole_Trickle wrote:Water-boarding is a very poor analogy when it comes to abortion. My personal thoughts or opinions are irrelevant simply because I do not consider SIN a legitimate line in the sand between wrong and right. I'm more of a critical thinker as opposed to the majority of those who would consider Drinking beer, or pre-marital sex a sin. Even though they engage in both in their private lives only to denounce them while in Church, or in the public eye. There are too many to list who have traveled that path while critical of those like me. There's a word for those types, is there not?

Who has the right to determine what Sin is, who has sinned, and to what level, or to what degree? Are some sins bigger than others, or do they all fall under the same umbrella meaning A sin is a sin, regardless of intent?

Right is right and wrong is wrong, the distinction between the two is more clouded today/Gray if you will, because of " SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS " which get coupled with the brainwashing techniques of those in control of the world. It's the way they want it, yet despite that I'm pretty sure that there are still millions of people walking the Earth who, without doubt, know right from wrong given any situation.

A better analogy from you perspective would be if My Wife or child was kidnapped and the Police had the guy who did it in custody, or better yet, I had tracked him down and captured him myself. Now your line of though may have some merit since the situation as a whole has been boiled down to the personal level.

Maybe this situation if handled properly would save my wife or child, but maybe not. Either way he won't leave my control until I have them back either alive or dead, preferably alive of course. I doubt very very seriously that under that circumstance any action on behalf can consciously be determined as a sin. Only those who have been conditioned would ever have such a thought even cross their minds. JMHO

Cole


I would have to say that drinking a beer is not a sin. Nowhere in the Bible is drinking any alcohol a sin. Drunkenness is, but that is a different subject. Pre marital sex? Fornication is indeed a sin, like it or not. Do I determine what sin is? No. God does that. Its easy enough to read the Bible and see what He says about it. Is one sin greater than another? No. If you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of all sins. There is no in between. Sin is sin. Sin is falling short of God's perfection, and all of us fall short of that.

In the situation you describe, I would hope that I could capture the person that took my wife and child myself. I guarantee they would never commit another crime but, then I am a sinner. Everyone quotes "if an enemy strikes you on one cheek turn to him also the other cheek." I like another quote from the old testament. "Blessed be the Lord God for He has delivered mine enemies into mine hands."

We have to deal with life as it comes at us. And we deal with it in the capacity that we are given. If we can be merciful as God would have us be, so much the better. But, if we cannot, I rely on His forgiveness if that is at all possible.
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Postby adamwarlock2099 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:46 am

Cole_Trickle wrote:adam,

I'd be careful with your logic/common sense approach to reality, it makes too much sense. You're obviously well versed, intelligent, and above all, grounded in your beliefs. Some around here look down upon such virtues, which I deem to be part of the show so transparent and such a Pity.

I concur with your thoughts.

Thanks for posting. :)

best,

Cole


Cole,

I get that a lot. It's not that I can't believe in things that cannot be seen or proven in our convention sense. I found the old Black Vault board many years ago, and while I lurked more than I posted I find that many things of the paranormal to be very logical, and some not.

I really shouldn't have commented above as I did. It's too personal of an issue that I tend to comment about passionitly. And sometimes, ironically, I loose my logic when I think about the events that acured with the birth of our son.

Thank you for your engaging comments on this subject though. You too are an intelligent debator. I look forward to engaging you in other subjects.
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Postby screamzero » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Islam; Judaic; fairly all modern Western civilizations (post 19th century); the first Constitution (American)......all drawn largly from Mosaic law...and has enigmatically been reflected by Greek Philosophy via logical deduction as well: That which proves Justice isn't blind is right; sinless and Law.
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:29 pm

Whatever happened to you Adam you helped proove my point. You can have all the standards you wish, and think a certain philosophy is what you would do, until it becomes some personal level. Than all these things go right out the window, because now you have to deal with the decisions. Opinions are cheap when its you telling someone else, until its happening to you, than it takes on a whole new perspective.
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