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Aviation and Ufo Technology....

Here, you will find discussions on Top Secret military aviation, historical aircraft, and everything in between!

Postby AmandaAshtar » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:44 am

Greetings Everyone: I've often wondered about the advanced Aviation Technology. I'm aware that alot of it is from the Ufo that crashed in Roswell in the 40's. Especially the SR-71. In some of the Star Wars movies they used that as a model! How cool! I think Star Trek and all the Star Trek tv episodes espeically "Enterprise and Star Trek The Next Generation" have alot of truth and are right on the money. My Grandpa was a Pilot and used to be in the Military before he passed a number of years ago. I recall my Mom saying my Grandma was not able to talk about where and what my Grandpa (Harry Perl)did.

I'm sure he did alot of top secret stuff. Not to say awhole lot but it's just intriguing. I wonder if he has seen stuff. I got to fly alot with my Family when we went on trips. We went to Houston,TX to see the Space facility, way awesome! I feel alot of Aviation Technology is connected to the Ufo and advanced technology that our Government has developed. My Grandpa developed a glider which is a motorless airplane called "The Penetrator" it's in a museum in New York.

I learned to fly in a two place K-13 and a Cessna 206. I LOVE to fly! My Uncle had his log book signed by Orville Wright. My Family and I went to San Diego where they lived and I got a winch tow at Torrie Pines when they turned that landing strip into a Historical Monument that day. Talk about adreniline having a wich tow in a glider over a cliff near the ocean was fantastic what a blast! This is a photo of a glider, they are so cool! Not sure who the Pilot is, but both my parents are Pilot's as well. I'm hopeing to get mine soon! Really expensive trying to save up. Will be worth it though!

Here's an article my Mom wrote, enjoy!

History of the Northern California Soaring Association

By Toodie Perl-Marshall





The spring of 1947, saw a group of soaring enthusiasts gather at the beautiful grass strip known as Warm Springs Airport, to decide on how to form a glider club. Fellows from Ames Research and Lockheed who loved to fly, felt by pooling their money to purchase a glider, they could start a club. The Ames group formed first, then as more people started coming out, decided another overall club would work well. Since only a hand full of pilots were flying in all of Northern California, logically, they felt that they represented Northern California, thus the name Northern California Soaring Association was chosen.

Warm Springs Airport was located at the southern end of Mission Ridge, easy towing and landing when soaring on the long ridge. While at Warm Springs, the club held two soaring contests. Some of the gliders attending the first one were; two slick LK’s (Lister-Kaufmann), a swell Pratt Reid (side by side), the Ames club TG-3, Les Arnold’s TG-3 Redwing, and Ted Nelson’s Hummingbird.

Ralph & Betty Salisbury, the operators of the field, lived above the large hanger, were very friendly folks who loved the glider activity. However, Ralph always wanted to fly for an airline, he went to work flying for United Airlines. Derrill “Gabby” Hansen who worked over at Ames Research became the airport manager while Ralph was away.

1948 Ted Nelson bought the Bowlus Aircraft Company, moved everything to San Leandro, where Ted lived, including Harry Perl and family. Harry had worked for Hawley at the time. Ted changed the name to Nelson Aircraft Company. He and Harry set about designing a two-place tandem motor glider with retractable engine and steerable nose wheel. The first Hummingbird flew from the Hayward Airport, then over to Warm Springs Airport. Ted loved flying in waves and flew a lot in the early side by side Hummingbird. Both Ted and Harry joined the NCSA. Stan and Dorothy Hall also moved to the Bay Area from Southern California, about the same time joining the NCSA too. Stan wrote many technical articles on soaring for Soaring magazine. He eventually designed the popular glider home-built kit, called the Cherokee. Les Arnold was already active in soaring, flying as a teenager out in the Altamont hills east of Livermore, so driving to Warm Springs from Hayward, where he lived, was fast. Les became one of the most active members for a long time to come.



The group grew, having a great time learning the soaring conditions of the Bay Area. However, into the second year at Warm Springs Airport, the owner of the field would not renew the lease, the group was forced to move. They found an airfield north of Warm Springs called Centerfield in Centerville, now Fremont. The airport was farther west and north of Mission ridge, there was some doubt about returning to the airport after soaring at the ridge. But, it turned out that the distance was not a problem. Centerfield or as everyone called it, Centerville, was on the corner of Blacow and Mowry Rd. near where the Oakland Center is now located. This was 1952. This same year Dick Johnson and his new bride, Alice, moved to Northern California joining the NCSA flying his RJ-5. The NCSA purchased a Myers Biplane as their tow plane, it climbed 1,000 feet per min using a metal Maculley prop. (I remember, as a kid, getting rides and hearing the wires sing!) During one particular tow by tow pilot Jim Hutton, he just passed the fence at the end of the field at about 100', when the prop decided to part company with the Myers landing Jim in the next field, and the prop nearby. Jim was pretty excited about towing that day! At this time TG-3's were being sold by the Government for $2,500 each. The Ames club had one and so did Les Arnold, his was called “Redwing.” Many pilots, including me, got their glider rating in ole “Redwing,” as Les fondly called her.

At that time the gliders could not go any higher than 4000', the CAA after some persuasion (now FAA) gave a waiver that allowed gliders to fly higher – no more ADIZ Zone restrictions. (started along time ago!) Fellows holding a Commercial license were; Harry Perl, Fred Matteson, Earl Menefee, Art Hunter, Phil Howland, Ralph Salisbury, Derrill (Gabby) Hansen, and Jack Stephenson. They were available to give instruction.

In 1950, the annual meeting was held for the NCSA at Onstads Smorgasbord Restaurant in San Leandro. Dinner price was $2.00 which included tax and tip! Bob Symons (Bishop wave fame) was the featured speaker. Ted Nelson set a new altitude record on October 29th in a south wind wave, 12,550 feet. Two other fellows, one flying a Dragonfly and one a Baker McMillan Cadet quickly joined the fun attaining an altitude of 10,000 feet and 9,600 feet respectively. The Cadet was without a vario! Membership costs were; $2.00 Assoc., $3.00 Active, and $5.00 family.

The early ‘50's saw many pilots from the Bay Area, traveling to El Mirage and Torrey Pines soaring sites, for soaring contests. This was an exciting time in soaring - new ships - new pilots - new soaring conditions to explore. Ted and Harry with the Hummingbird, made a survey of soaring conditions in Reno, Nevada area in 1951-1952. They reported - terrific thermals! But very dangerous country for sailplanes to the north and east. Reno Airport and the Minden Airport were willing to have sailplanes fly there. Many auto tows were done at the Minden airport - teaching all of us youngsters to fly! Only one big wooden hanger graced the many runways available to us, no other traffic! Only sage brush, jack rabbits, dust, and heat! A BT-13 was one of the tow planes, very slow, and we were low for a long time, but once into a thermal, the rising air would lift the TG-3 up, up, until the beauty of Lake Tahoe would come into view. Worth the tow! We all had a blast, Bill Bullis, Bob Gomes, Gabby Hansen, Earl Menefee, Jean Arnold, Les Arnold and many other NCSA members. A summer of learning to fly! Frequent trips to Bowers Mansion for a swim with dinner at one of the few casinos, or the JT Bar in Gardnerville. This was the beginning of many soaring flights made from that wonderful location.

In April of 1951, Emil Kissel got to 6,500 feet at sunset, in a TG-3 trying to set an endurance record, thinking the wind would blow all night! However, the wind quit during darkness and Emil was forced to land, but where? He could not tell where the airport was as there were very few lights to guide him back, but being resourceful, Emil made it!



March of 1952, Gabby Hansen and Ralph Salisbury made a trip to Sacramento at the request of John Flynn and Vic Swierkowski, they were thinking of starting a soaring club. The NCSA gave them the necessary help to start their Sacramento Soaring club. They chose to fly from the Lincoln Airport, which was like Minden with many runways, they flew there for a long time. Vic later went on to run the commercial glider operation, during the summers, at the Truckee Airport.

The third annual NCSA contest was held at Oakdale Airport June 13-14th, in 1952. By then the Sacramento group had purchased a damaged TG-3, it took a year of rebuilding to get it into the air, they were happy to be able to fly in the contest. A Baby Bowlus owned by Glen Rogers came, and Vic Swierkowski brought his LK. TG-3's, Pratt-Reid’s and Lks were the ships of the day at these contests. The Sacramento group began holding contests at the Lincoln airport in later years. There was a lot of enthusiasm in those days. Then the Napa Club formed June 4,1954. Falk Falkenberg got things rolling through the help of the Sacramento club and NCSA. They had eight members which made purchasing a ship rather difficult from a financial point of view. However, the group finally purchased a TG-3, but not without more than five months of looking at ships that were not suitable, causing a lot of disappointment and frustration. Bob Penn became their technical advisor, and helped them with plans to operate a winch. They got a souped-up ‘48 Plymouth engine which developed 95 horsepower. The cable was 4000' enabling them to reach the Napa hills, for many hours of soaring fun. Their membership included; Falk Falkenberg, Dick Hill, Enno Penchnik, Harold Quill, John Robinson, William Romans, Ed Sherry, and Bob Penn.



In 1954, the NCSA Board consisted of Dick Bray, President, Fred Jukich, vice-president, Sect. Tres. was Walt Bybee, with Asst. Tres. John Sawyer (Sawyer Award named after him) and Board; Les Arnold, Earl Menefee, George Congdon, Ted Nelson and Gabby Hansen. Bill Bullis had joined the club as an Ames club member along with Bob Gomes. Harry Perl had designed the Perl Penetrator, a high performance single place ship for the time period, it won the design award at the Nationals in 1954 at Lake Elsinore, CA.



In 1956, the NCSA & Ames soaring club was invited to move to Hummingbird Haven, home of Alice-Ted & Jerry Nelson. Ted had acquired 80 acres at the corner of Greenville Rd. and Patterson Pass Rd. in Livermore. The clubs knew they would be forced to move once again due to development, and they were right. Ted and Alice Nelson’s generous offer was excitedly accepted, and we all moved out to the Livermore Valley. Stan Hall built us a wonderful tetrahedron that stood for the 34 years we operated there. “One Never Landed Against the Tetrahedron!” Harry by that time, had become the airport manager for Ted, over seeing the whole operation until Ted and Alice moved to Reno, most members never knew how stressful that position was for Harry. The beginning of 1959, the first “John B Sawyer Memorial Participation Award” was given out. Dr. Sawyer was killed in his Mitchell Nimbus at the Nationals held at Bishop, CA the year before. Doc Sawyer as we all called him, contributed greatly to the NCSA over the years, he flew with the group during the Centerville days. In the Spring of ‘59, Les Arnold moved back to Centerville, starting his own operation called “SkySailing” which was very successful. He later moved to the Fremont airport, next to the Fremont Drag strip off the Nimitz Freeway. But, before he left, Les gave many a fledgling pilot his glider rating including my brother, Larry Perl. Jerry Nelson flying his Dad’s Hummingbird with Dad (Jerry in the backseat, because all the engine controls were in the front) learning to take off and land, later switching to a real glider for his rating. In the ensuing years he and Larry, as teenagers, would fly the Hummingbird in many waves over Livermore and Mt. Diablo. Jerry later earned his power license with an IFR rating, and graduated from San Jose State with an Engineering Degree. He now owns the Nelson Aircraft Co. in Hillsborough, Oregon designing and building model airplanes. Jerry was the International model airplane Champion in the 1970's.

Many flights in the super wave over Mt. Diablo were made during those years by everyone who flew at Hummingbird Have. Ted was the one who attained the highest recognized flight of over 22,000', and, Ted was one of the first glider pilots to have a transponder in his Hummingbird. Summer wave conditions existed over the Del Valle Reservoir south of the field in the summers. We could tell when this wave condition would start, by looking over to San Francisco, seeing the fog push in from the coast and roll over the Golden Gate Bridge. Roy Moeller flying his Cirrus, was able to climb to over 15,000' in this wave on more than one occasion. I was in this wave condition at 8,000' when a lenticular formed underneath my AS-K 13, very spectacular soaring! Livermore had great thermals, wave, ridge and cu’s, when a front passed by. We really had it all!

The 1970's saw the formation of PASCO, far thinking pilots realized that someday we would lose the soaring sites that doted the Bay Area, they all searched for a remote location that would provide a soaring site for a long time. Thus, Air Sailing was founded in the Palomino Valley west of Pyramid Lake, Nevada.

Flying at Hummingbird Haven, Dorothy and George Asdel had purchased a new Standard Cirrus, Dorothy become the first woman pilot to fly Diamond distance from Hummingbird Haven. Many Silver, Gold and Diamond distance flights were flown from our soaring site. The annual membership meetings were still held every year. Tom Jona won the most phone calls in one year to the club house to see how the conditions were. It WAS Always a Good Day at Hummingbird!

Hummingbird Haven was a wonderful location for the NCSA and Ames Club, we had a club house, pool and picnic area for the families. We held pot luck dinners every Saturday night. Lots of hanger flying after soaring, sitting on the bench’s next to the hanger. Mac Snyder was able to stay up on practically nothing, his flights were amazing, as well as Tom Jona’s. We purchased a new Super Cub - 9er9erZulu, what a wonderful ship that was, but as with most tow planes, better performance was needed, so we purchased a Bellanca Scout which is still in use today.



Most of the early driving members, Earl Menefee, Gabby Hansen, Les Arnold, Harry Perl, Fred Matteson, Jack Stephenson, and Dick Bray, started a most exciting club that is still active today. I was the first female President 1976, & 1984-5 and tow pilot. When Harry passed away in 1984, Bob Marshall became the Chief Tow pilot/Instructor, replacing Harry. Ted and Alice had sold the field moving to Reno, NV. Alice’s health declined and passed on, with Ted following a couple of years later. We all knew that soon Hummingbird Haven would be no more. In 1989, we all gathered to tear down both hangers, moving them to the Byron Airport north of Livermore. The hangers were never rebuilt, but sold to the soaring group at Hollister. The adjustment was difficult as we had flown at a private field, and, now we had to share! The newsletter “Hot Air” gave way to “The Buzzard,” which is still published. Contra Costa County took over the Byron Airport and built a new “Airport.” The new Byron Airport is like any other, the soaring conditions are okay, the club is alive and well, and finally the NCSA absorbed the Ames Soaring Club.

Members still flying, or members of the NCSA, or past members from Hummingbird days are; Earl Menefee, Bill Bullis, Mary & Mac Snyder, Elena Klein, Marge Hayes, Charlie Hayes (commercial operator at AirSailing), Ed & Peni Thunin, Roy Moeller, Leslie & Mark Summers, Mike and Bill Green, Tom and Ann Jona, Bob McKay (President of Air Sailing), Mike Oshel, Dave Pelton, Dorothy Asdel, Marty Michaels, Mike Schnieder, Bruce & Polly Patton, Peter Kelemen, Ulf & Bea Gustafsson, Jerry & Jean Hartshorn, John Apps, Peter Deane, Brooke Sargent, Hal Ross, John Seronello, Ray & Bonnie Smith, Greg Triplett, Mort & Jinx Tyler, Rich Parker, Ben & Gay Badenoch,Tamas Csoboth, Joe Huelle, Dick Larder, Jere,David,Sabine Prather, Howard Harvey, Jim & Eleanor Wasley, Tom Cooper, Curt Laumann, Dick Cook, Dick Horn, Marty Michaels, Rolf Peterson, Kempton Izuno, Steve McRoberts, Dean Watts, Wayne Harshbarger, and Bill Reuland. Les and Claire Sebald went on to form Soar Truckee, we lost Les a few years ago, Claire is still her vivacious self. Toodie & Bob Marshall live & fly in Truckee. Bob is a District Director for the Truckee Tahoe Airport. If I have missed anyone, I apologize, many moons and much water!

Time moves on changing faces, soaring sites, and ships, what doesn’t change, is the love of soaring that is passed on to the new pilots from the first pilots, who loved to fly. The soaring conditions are still the same–the same excitement of catching a thermal or wave – the same excitement soaring the skies that the early pilots were just beginning to understand!



These two poems were published in “Hot Air”, taken from a flying magazine in the 1950's. The Author’s are unknown. This is a challenging, solitary sport, returning a most special gift to those who dare to challenge the skies!



“The genius of man having conquered gravity and contrary winds and having touched the bird and found its secrets, soars from the earth a conqueror.” Author unknown



“I don’t know of anything more exhilarating than flying. It’s something you give yourself–a gift of confidence and reassurance in your own abilities.” author unknown













Cheers, Amanda Ashtar
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BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 03, 2009 11:25 am

Hi Amanda,
Glad you registered again, and glad to see you in the aviation forum. Its amazing how a family history just puts aviation in your blood. I grew up in an aviation culture with my Dad as an aeronautical engineer for Bell Aircraft in Niagara Falls. He had many many top secret programs I have just found out about, and John our administrator and my son, has tracked down many of the documents from Bell AC. The 40's and 50's were golden years of aviation, and the development in aviation in those years, was like todays computer development. Yesterdays ideas were nearly obsolete within a year. My Dad worked the Aerocomet, the first american jet duing WW2. My Mom never knew where he was when he left for work, it was a secret location. He also was a big part of the X-1, X-2, X-5, and Rascal Missle. When he left Bell AC he was slated to manage the X-22 program. In 1951, I was jsut a boy and we came to Califonia for several months, to live in Pearblossom. Dad was the field flight test engineer for the maiden flights of the X-5, and at the same time the maiden flight of the #3 X-1, at that time known as Dryden, now known as Edwards Air Force Base. The technology of those research planes evolved aviation dramatically.

Glad to see you back Amanda, your history in aviation is very cool.
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Postby Aquatank » Sun May 03, 2009 8:25 pm

Greeney 2
I know there is a little bit of info on that saucer pic above out there.
http://www.strategic-air-command.com/my ... rcraft.htm
116ft foot diamenter with 4 exhaust pipes. I was thinking wouldn't the engine type or atleast power output be calculated from the size of the air intakes. To me the intakes look awfully small for a craft that size, off the top of my head I'm thinking maybe four General Electric J85 turbojets which would have been readily available after 1959, so say 14000 lbs thrust. The tail looks like its off a U-2 so the builder was probably Lockheed. Multiple exhausts suggest a need for smaller engines that the General Electric F118-101 perhaps for aerodynamic reasons, and using J85s would be a smart move to keep things in the black since they were common. Similiar to Chance Vought XF5U this aircraft would have had STOL capabilities and perhaps low stall speeds because the air intakes would be guiding large amounts of air over the upper wing surface. Just a thought.
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Postby AmandaAshtar » Sun May 03, 2009 8:34 pm

Hi Greeney2! Good to see you too my friend! Yes, it's amazing all the technology :-) how far we have all come. Wright Brothers started an awsome thing!

Cheers! Amanda Ashtar Silverstar
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Postby Mr_Headshot » Sun May 03, 2009 9:36 pm

AMANDA!
I'm so glad you're still around, I always love your threads. Thanks for staying with us!
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Postby greeney2 » Wed May 06, 2009 11:09 am

I'm not real sure about the engines but intake size would have to govern power output. Also the small size on that picuture probably had a lot to do with the Stealth technology I'm guessing. Lockheed has a lot of black projects, but not sure how much in the flying wings. Northrop wa the inventer of the flying wings, so not sure if anyone else could infringe on that technology.
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Postby Aquatank » Sat May 09, 2009 8:07 pm

Northrop & Horton Bros. (* whistle * check this one out from 1950s I've never seen this aircraft before http://www.scripophily.net/hoaicone19.html )

But we are looking more at a circular wing above that'd be Chance Vought's (F4U2 Corsair builder ) turf, now Vought Aircraft Industries, Inc (briefly owned by Northrop Grumman and now owned by Carlyle Group why does that sound sinister?)
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Postby AmandaAshtar » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:52 pm

Hi Gang! Its so cool to have a forum like this. I'm glad that its still going!! Aviation Technology is certainly fascinating! Ever since the Wright Brothers started the whole Aviation. They must be proud of what it's become and how far. Really awesome!!
BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!
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Postby AmandaAshtar » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:16 am

Hey: Thanks Mr.Headshot and all. As I said it's nice that there's a board like this. Theres always something interesting going on!

Cheers: Amanda Ashtr :mrgreen:
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Postby Aquatank » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:36 pm

The following links are some radio controlled planes based on WWII designs incluiding the xf5u. It my opinion that to see if things are possible flying R/C models atleast show the potentials and pitfalls of various aircraft.
Horton IX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQupBl7E ... re=related

Heinkel He. 162 Salamander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpSsbdBnw8A

Focke Wulfe Ta. 183 Huckebein
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIt4lFcYhSI

Chance Vought XF5U-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlqGWuFZQgk

Northrop B-35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0sVnlH1KDk

Coanda Effect Flying Saucer similar to Haunebu II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdGVI7kJld0

Nutball rc flying saucer similar layout to Arthur Sack's AS.6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kzC6eeEvF8
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