The Black Vault

In the manner of what Cole did for 9/11/01 in this subforum, I believe that the Apollo missions to put men on the moon and return them safely to Earth.

Do others have a contrary belief, if so then why?
"The gov't always lies" is a cop out and unacceptable imho.

The Government doesn't always lie, just when it suits one of their unpopular agendas. Like going to war with Iraq. That lie was a fabricated story about WMD's. Here years later they now search for a way out, only they still seem to be dragging their feet under the guise of security and a fragile Democracy Call it what it is, or is that something the Government is still afraid to do even in this day and age.

What purpose did putting a man on the moon serve? What purpose does the shuttle serve. How many dead in that dieing program of a dog and pony show? How many billions of dollars pissed away?

You believe that the technology existed back then to place a man on the moon, well that's great, so why is it that when someone doubts that it did exist that they get labeled a kook or nut job?

I know UNC beat Mich St hell I saw it all on TV.

Cole

In the end it´s a matter of trust and facts...
But facts aren´t enough when trust is not there...and thus some believe that the moon landing never happened...

Cole_Trickle wrote:The Government doesn't always lie, just when it suits one of their unpopular agendas. Like going to war with Iraq. That lie was a fabricated story about WMD's. Here years later they now search for a way out, only they still seem to be dragging their feet under the guise of security and a fragile Democracy Call it what it is, or is that something the Government is still afraid to do even in this day and age.

What purpose did putting a man on the moon serve? What purpose does the shuttle serve. How many dead in that dieing program of a dog and pony show? How many billions of dollars pissed away?

You believe that the technology existed back then to place a man on the moon, well that's great, so why is it that when someone doubts that it did exist that they get labeled a kook or nut job?

I know UNC beat Mich St hell I saw it all on TV.

Cole

Hey mr 1/2 story.

WMD's were not the only stated reason, and the intelligence services from all over the world including USSR stated they had WMD's. As well as Billdo Clintoris' CIA chief. Get some facts str8 though it doesn't really suit you.

Fact They had no WMD's and please provide a linked source to the so call" INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES " from all over the world.

All about Oil and a presence in the region. Nothing more, nothing less

How many dead for that grand plan.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH02pp3sM3I


National Security archive~~~WMD's

Washington D.C., August 22, 2008 - The U.S. intelligence community buckled sooner in 2002 than previously reported to Bush administration pressure for data justifying an invasion of Iraq, according to a documents posting on the Web today by National Security Archive senior fellow John Prados.

The documents suggest that the public relations push for war came before the intelligence analysis, which then conformed to public positions taken by Pentagon and White House officials. For example, a July 2002 draft of the "White Paper" ultimately issued by the CIA in October 2002 actually pre-dated the National Intelligence Estimate that the paper purportedly summarized, but which Congress did not insist on until September 2002.

A similar comparison between a declassified draft and the final version of the British government's "White Paper" on Iraq weapons of mass destruction adds to evidence that the two nations colluded in the effort to build public support for the invasion of Iraq. Dr. Prados concludes that the new evidence tends to support charges raised by former White House press secretary Scott McClellan and by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in its long-delayed June 2008 "Phase II" report on politicization of intelligence.

Contact~~John Prados @ (202) 994-7000

Declassified material: They want you to know what the actually did if you have the balls to go there!

# A recently declassified draft of the CIA’s October 2002 white paper on Iraqi WMD programs demonstrates that that paper long pre-dated the compilation of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi capabilities.
# The timing of the CIA’s draft white paper coincides with a previously available draft of the British Government’s white paper on Iraqi WMD, demonstrating that the Bush administration and the Tony Blair government began acting in concert to build support for an invasion of Iraq two to three months earlier than previously understood.

Does this make any sense to you hard headed far right wingers? Anything?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB254/index.htm

Cole

PS. Of course you have to have a reason for not finding any weapons. So who ya gonna call? ~~ well NEWSMAX of course~~

I just love the Obama " JOKER " card deck these clowns are selling on their site~~~Real professionals at work, real class just like some of the actors posting BS around the web.

Obviously the Russians hid the weapons~~100,000,000 tons worth

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... shtml?s=lh

PS NO.2

Only one small problem with Jackie Boy`~~ The L.A TImes says he's dirty! Imagine that!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0707-03.htm

Surely there is already a thread somewhere, about the WMD boogey-man.

What purpose did putting a man on the moon serve? What purpose does the shuttle serve. How many dead in that dieing program of a dog and pony show? How many billions of dollars pissed away?

A valid point, if only that had been the subject of the thread...........

You believe that the technology existed back then to place a man on the moon, well that's great, so why is it that when someone doubts that it did exist that they get labeled a kook or nut job?

I believe it because i have taken a course in life and education that allows me to know that the tech did indeed exist. The science to calculate the trajectories had existed for centuries.

So when a person with no training or experience comes along and claims that it was not possible, that the astronauts are all liars , that the thousands of people who worked on the projects are all liars or dupes, my reaction is that it would be funny if it were not so utterly mad.

'the flag moved in a wind'
no, it did not. It moved when it was touched or bumped.

'the Van Allen Belts would kill an astronaut'
no they would not, even Van Allen himself stated it would not kill them.

'the shadows are wrong'
no, they are not and photo experts abound to illustrate this

'there were no powerful enough computers then'
True, you just don't absolutly require them either. That line of reasoning could be used to state that supersonic jets could not be real in the 1950's either, but no one seems to want to state that.

In fact the tech to successfully fake all the Apollo missions was behind the tech to actually carry them out. remember, Photoshop would not be invented for another several deacdes, but of course it actually would require a powerful computer.

My favorite is the one in which the AH believer states that the astornaut that jumped should have taken less time to go up than to come back down. He displays a lack of understanding of gravitational attraction that was explained by Newton and Kepler.
Or Una's 'coke bottle', in which her story has so many holes in it that calling her a liar is being generous and for which oddly enough, she is the sole witness in the entire world. (In truth the only ones who saw te landing live were in and around Perth Australia, still one would think that someone else would report having seen it as well, but , alas, no one did.)

I also had a poster here on the BV tell me that the dust fell too fast. I proved, using math and science that has been around for centuries, that indeed it did not. Her reply? That I was using data supplied by NASA. I was not. I was using math and science developed by long dead physicists. Math and science that is taught and used by scientists and engineers around the world, math and science that gave us such marvels as aircraft and parachutes. It is the same math and science that has been used by militaries for a few hundred years to determine how far a cannon or howitzer shell will travel. Gee, it worked well before NASA was created!

If you worked in this space program you would know your claim is preposterous Cole. The space program has had a profound impact on your world, and the technology that came out of the space program. We invented the technology that didn;t exist the day Kennedy committed us to landing in 10 years on the moon. It wasn't just computers by the way. I worked for 29 years on the Shuttle Main Engines, and I can assure you the program is anything but a dog and pony show. I worked with thousands of people who worked on Mercury, Gemini, and Appollo, and we definatly landed and walked on the moon, many times. We are returning to the moon again, and if it were a dog and pony show, Rocketdyne would not be reviving the Appollo J-2 engines for that program right now--the J-2X.

The first shuttle mission was in 1981, but the concept began in the mid 1950s, before Sputnik was ever launched. The Bell Aircraft Corp designed the BOMI system, That Evolved to the Boeing Dyna/soar, and than to the shuttle in the early 70's. The X-1 and era of the rocket planes, the X-15, all were pioneers of early space flight evolution. The early Space shuttle flights were years before even the basic 286 computer was on the market, but the system is so sophisocated, its 5 computers would shut down a launch before a failure and disaster would occur. Thats when people like you Cole are saying, "what a piece of crap again", but to people at Rocketdyne, the system was working perfectly, to avert disaster instead of creating it. You critisize the deaths from Space flight. 3 died in the Apollo program. 2 shuttles have been lost, and I was part of teams for 2 years after each disaster. Every single employee was part of an extensive effort to painstakingly review every single proceedure of every single part, page by page. This was done in every division for every part of the orbiter. That was done on every aspect of the space shuttle program, from suppliers to the launch pad. So when Ii'm called names for my belief in things like the WTC reports, its from extensive understanding of what goes into a failure study.

You don;t have to be a rocket scientist to understand if the moon mission was faked, how did 100,000 plus people directly in the making of it, get fooled. The idea of faking it in a movie studio is so rediculas, every other military secret has been leaked out, this could have never remained a secret, especially 40 years later. Chasing shadows on a documentary, isn;t anymore proof of a faked moon landing, than thinking cutting slag is thermite. The magnitude of the program could not have been faked, and if you don't think other spy sattelites didn't watch the LEM Blast off towards the moon and return, you are nieve. this was the cold war era and tensions with Russia were high, so you can bet they watched every move it made, and every super power did too. They didn't just circle the earth for 10 days, they went to the moon and back.

Nobody is calling anyone names for something they believe, or don't believe. I don't claim anything, but I do question. It's a pity some take issue with that.

When are we going back to the Moon?

Cole

If your questions get answers that , as they inevitably do, point to the fact that the Apollo missions successfully took men to the Moon and back is that good enough for you then?

I know that I have seen easily a hundred 'questions' concerning the veracity of the fact that these missions went as advertised, and have seen the answer to each and every one of them.
ETA: in fact I went so far as to buy a copy of "Dark Moon" just to have a compilation of many of the 'questions'.
There are a few people who have compiled these questions and their answers in websites that anyone can check out. Often it requires technical descriptions but given that the subject is often very technical that's hardly suprising.

Would you like a link Cole?

As for name calling, perhaps you do not. However, anyone who does state that the Apollo missions were hoaxed is definately calling the astronauts all liars. They are calling into question as well, all the work done by thousands of trained technical people. They are doing this from a standpoint of pure unadulterated ignorance and arrogance.

I beg to differ with you Cole about the use of labels and namecalling that went on during heated talks about the WTC collapse, and many other war section subjects. The other part of brainstorming anything is listening to any and all ideas, than thru a strong concenses, conclusions are made. When ideas do not answer the simple question "How or Why", step by step, nothing has been proven. That is the where the Thermite theory ends, never addressing the How or Why questions.

As far as landing on the moon, what hard evidence does anyone have to support it being a Hoax? "How and Why" could it have been done? Making up some imagined doubt is a long way from proof. Hundreds of thousands of people worked on the Appollo program, 20,000 just at my plant alone building all the motors. Rocketdyne built the F-1's, and J2's, and all the thrusters and LEM rockets. They worked 24/7 365 days a week doing that. How could you fool all these people? All the people that work on the launch pad? All the people that recover the capsule? Its rediculas, and to not have a single deathbed confession to date confirms this.

Appollo was before my time at Rocketdyne, my time was the shuttle program. I've been very lucky in that job, not just the nature of the work. I have met dozens of Astronauts, including seeing Crippen and Young, Engle and Truly, and was given an award by the Return to flight mission commander after Challenger. I've seen Generals, several heads of NASA, local polititons, National News Anchors like Morton Dean, Governor Pete Wilson, and was 10 feet from President Clinton. These were not people faking the space program, and Appolo was not faked either. The most honest and appreciative are the astronauts who love talking to the shop people as their lives are in our hands literally. The Appollo astronauts began this tradition of touring the divisions, and they probably are the most honest and humble people you will ever meet. Do you think that the entire effort was not to goto the moon, but to fake it, and have it remain a total secret? That all these Astronaunts knew it and kept is quiet? Only a handfull of people have walked on the moon, but 100,000 plus people walked with them when they did. When the space Shuttle goes up, I guarentee you each and every working is imagining the ride while preying whatever they did, will not fail.

Returning to the moon is happening right now. It is the first in preparing for a mission the Mars. They are planning to use Rocketdynes J-2 Appolo 2nd stage motors, redesigned to become the J-2X. First test firing I think is planned in the next year of 2, and I believe they are planned for around 2015. Big question is if Obama will kill the program.