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Gaza slaughter

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Postby Aquatank » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:21 am

You are really going to use the "Human Shield" argument? Okay fine, we all know the bad guys play dirty. It still does not justify a 75% non-combatant kill ratio, and the terrorist still kill far too few to justify military operations against major population centers. We are looking at a Nation with a annual terrorist murders lower than New York City. Seriously look at the numbers since 1920 to the start of the conflict in 2014 (94 years) there were 3728 people murdered by terrorists with a high mark of 457 meaning for the entire nation state of Israel they kill an average of 40 people per year (reference: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... oterr.html ) Take a look at New York City it's between 209 and 597 per year and its been going down. (reference: http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map ) or Detroit between 310 & 402 per year (reference http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-De ... higan.html ) I lived in Boston in the early 1980s when the annual murder rate was over 1000 a year, that means 4 years in Boston was as dangerous as 94 years in Israel. Yet there was no massive police presence with check points, no invasion of my neighborhoodor the adjoining ones, no artillery barrages, no home demolishments. None of that, but the bad guys lived in the neighborhoods just as if they were "Human Shields" too. The "Human Shield" argument holds no water for me, and neither does a military invasion. What I see is purposeful gleeful overkill by the nation state of Israel, in which Israeli people in the streets chant:
"Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé
In Gaza there’s no studying
No children are left there,
Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé,".

(reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Jj_Oe7uQc )
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Postby greeney2 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:21 am

Your logic is ridiculous. Our city murder rates, have nothing to do with the any of this. Our Urban crime is not a measure of response to acts of war, and lobbing rockets into city's next door, is clearly an act of war. The standards for police matters in your city and resulting actions, are not the same standard as actions in wars.
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Postby Aquatank » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:59 am

Greeney2
How does one side having the "Human Shields" mean the opposing side should show no restraint? How is that having "Human Shields" mean that Shield's worth as person is less important more worthless than killing the bad guy hiding behind it? And how does that justify using Area Effect weapons to do so? What is wrong with civilized police work, and arresting the perp when it is safe for public and officials to do so, why does it have to be stuff like: "there's the boss in that car" and end up firing a helicopter launched missile into it taking out bystanders (November 9, 2000 & February 13, 2001) . "They had Human Shield" does no erase the priority to "save the most human lives", if one side is causing more death than the other to save lives then it has failed and should cease operations until it discovers the way to save more lives then would otherwise be lost to allowing the opposition to do what it wants. Somehow American cities have gone down in murders per year since the 1980s without artillery barrages, and hellfire missiles destroying cars, there's no reason real attempts at peace can't work in Israel. Our Urban city murder rates are equivalent in Lives Lost, "Act Of War" is just a catch phrase in comparison, and even more so because the property loss in reacting to this as crime instead of war is also much less. Who causes the most deaths in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, The IDF, who causes the most financial property loss in the conflict, The IDF. If they dealt with Hamas and other terrorist as criminals instead of as terrorists deserving of military response there'd be a whole lot less death and destruction and peace would occur, much like the lowering murder rates in the USA. Military action & oppression is poor at creating harmony.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:32 am

I think you are missing how much restraint Israel has had giving warning after warning, dropping leaflets, Telling where strikes are going to be made, posturing troops on borders, repeated pleas from Peace efforts, many things you are not considering. When the whole thing erupted, every cease fires were all broken by Hamas, including the last one only 90 minutes in. You are clearly against Israel and I repeat, your logic using USA crime statistics is ridiculous comparing these issues.

You can see video of Hamas rockets being launched in heavily populated areas, coming what looks like out of backyards, inside inner city districts, hence shielded by humans, what choice did they have? What more can they do than drop leaflets and tell them, clear out we are going to bomb that location? Over 2000 rockets were launched indiscriminately, clearly different from striking a GPS location spot on the target.

The line of restraint went too far, so Israel went in to take out these launch places and destroy these tunnel networks, that is a measured response.
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Postby Aquatank » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:29 pm

A Crime has these three basics: Means, Motive, & Opportunity that logically have Results. Now we are looking at a Crime, the Crime called in for examination is murder & property destruction. Your posts imply that because of the Motive of the perpetrator that the crime is so morally offensive that it requires the most extreme of retaliatory actions, actions which actually result in not 3x more loss of life but currently 25x the loss of life had the retaliatory action not been carried out. IMHO This is akin to removing a skin tag on the back of one's finger by chopping off one's hand. The Motivation of the perpetrator IMHO does not warrant such actions, nor does the Opportunity, that leaves only the Means to commit the crime was a large enough enough to overcome ones' morality about causing more damage than would have been inflicted because its Mean's weapon was so powerful. Now I live in a very scary world where Damocles' Sword is surrounded by a world full people with scissors and thread, any individual or group could cut the thread and end life on the planet given Means, Motive, and Opportunity and many have those but they have no Desire to do so. At any point someone could replicate Epicyte's Sterility Corn (or some other bioweapon) and introduce it into the food or water supply thusly rendering the planet devoid of Human life within 80 years from lack of babies being born, it'd be terribly easy to do. But no one does because no has the desire to do so. And thusly I doubt any anti-Israeli group has any Desire to depopulate the eastern Mediterranean or allowing the backfire spread of any such contagion to spread far so seeing this as so, I do not in my opinion observe any Palestinian Means Weapon as a large enough danger to warrant excessive retaliation. This puts the terrorist threat's Means, Motive, Opportunities and Results well within the normal threat levels of a criminal organization and as such should be treated as a police matter.

As for the terrorists using Schools and Hospitals etc. as Human Shields and storage depots, the simple solution is have the police constantly guard those facilities and prevent them from being becoming strongholds and depots. To placate the populace so terrorists do not gain members means getting rid of apartheid polices, sieges, and actually helping improve the livelihoods of the local population more than the terrorists can. (If Hamas gives $1 million in Charity Israel should give $25 Million) Outspend & Outcompete the terrorists for the hearts and minds of the populace, don't punish them and expect them not to side with those who commit violence against those who oppress them. This has been Israel's main problem, it has not been kinder to the occupied peoples than its enemies have been. Ill treatment of conquered peoples always breeds resentment and resistance. If Israel wants peace it must use peaceful means not military means.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:02 pm

57% of Americans think Israel is justified, 12% of those including myself think they should have done more. Again your logic and point of view is ridiculous. Israel is withdrawing from the tunnel mission, lets see if Hamas is smart enough to stop launching rockets.
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Postby frrostedman » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Aquatank likes to compare other scenarios in order to vilify the Israelis in this one. I heard an appropriate comparison the other night. What was the Allied response to Hitler's attack on England? The allies carpet bombed major German cities, indiscriminately killing thousands of civilians.

In the Pacific War, in order to demoralize the Japanese, Americans intentionally carpet bombed Japan's major population centers with incendiary bombs, and hundreds of thousands of civilians burned to a crisp.

Compare that to what the Israelis are doing. Israel, not being stupid and knowing full well that the critical eye of the world is scrutinizing their every move, is being as careful and precise as possible to attack military targets and limit civilian casualties. When "innocent Palestinians" die, Israel expresses regret. Compare that also to Hamas, who celebrates every Israeli death including the civilians. It was the Palestinians seen dancing in the streets on 911. Remember that?

My honest opinion is, you have an axe to grind against Israel. You seek to twist facts--spotlighting certain events while ignoring others--in order to build your case. Israel has exercised patience and a willingness to cease fire, on a level that is off the scale compared to any other country and how harshly they would react under the same circumstances.

The anti-Jew crowd--which includes the majority of the world's media--is so determined to lay blame on Israel. Just the other day, Hamas misfired a rocket and it blew up a Palestinian building. Yep, you guessed it. The media blamed it on Israel anyway. No matter what happens... One side sees all this for what it is, and the other side is complicit in the distribution of dishonest propaganda and the perpetuating of violence and hatred.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby Aquatank » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:06 am

I'm not sure how comparing the number of people murdered to people being murdered is a different scenario, or how many buildings were destroyed to how many buildings were destroyed, or even how many tons of munitions were used to how many tons of munitions were used is applying different scenarios.

There is a basic fact here that Hawks ignore: Peace costs less than War & using less violence costs less.

Our USA over-reacted to 9-11 Terrorist and the resulting wars cost was over $2.2 Trillion Dollars in military expenditure and over all cost more than 1,120,000 Lives in Iraq alone. That's over 373 deaths for every 1 life on 9-11. Now I have maintained for years and I still maintain we in the USA could have done better by doing police work and gained international help in doing so, I have also maintained that if we had instead spent $400 Billion (due to advances since then that cost may be as little as $87 Billion) on creating a green economy based in wind power or enhanced geothermal system we could have the 100% of the USA powered on Green Alternative Energy, but no we wasted money, jobs, resources, (Green jobs create 17 jobs per million dollars spent fossil fuels create 5 jobs per million spent.) and political clout to engage in petty revenge. Instead of showing the moral superiority of peace & progress to lead the world by example we engaged in the brutal base action of death and murder, we responded the way the enemy wanted us to, we responded to terrorism & murder with greater terrorism & murder, and it helped sink our nation's economy and secure the financial & political position of global oligarchs.

The Murder of War and that previously stated fact applies to everyone everywhere, a nation or group gains more from refraining than violence and war, and it loses far too much by engaging in violence and war. It doesn't matter who is involved, Hamas is losing more than it could have gained other wise and Israel is losing more than it could gain at an even greater numbers.

"1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities. "-Sun Tzu's Art Of War chp. 3

"1. Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources of the State"-SunTzu's Art Of War chp. 13
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:21 am

We had also been through all the discussions about the whopper or a death claim Aquatank. Do not care to go over it again, like the moon landings, or WMD arguments. Been there, done that, too many times. They may be in the old archives of the last board, some may be in this archive, but the first claim was 500,000 now it is ballooned up to 1.2 M. Lets just make it 2M next debate.

However since you choose this as another preposterous argument against Israel, you may recall the complete restraint that Israel showed, at the request of the USA, to Scud missiles being lobbed into Israel, while Sadaam did threaten possible nerve gas warheads. We installed Patriot missiles in Israel, and we took out all the scud launchers. So do not claim Israel is not way too tolerant of missile attacks. How many scuds were launched, and how many Hamas missiles were launched (over 2000), before Israel troops entered Gaza. Who can blame them for GPS bombing where the missile came from? What ever Frrostedman and myself say to you it is on deaf ears. So what is your motivation, dead innocents or simply good ol fashioned antisemitism?

At least one good thing has come of this, at least for the black vault. The message board is still alive with those on both sides of issues willing to exchange opinions. So many have abandoned ship to daily brainless tweets and Facebook crap, Look what I'm having with my bacon and eggs. :lol:

What no response to 57% supporting Israel and how they responded?
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:07 pm

Aquatank wrote:There is a basic fact here that Hawks ignore: Peace costs less than War & using less violence costs less.

It is an irrelevant fact, because us "Hawks" don't place monetary value on human lives. When it comes to defending our own, money is no object; nor should it be. When it comes to war, us "Hawks" don't half-ass it to save a few bucks.

And there is also an analogy I have used in the past that works just as well here. Please address this one because I think it is relevant. This also touches on "peace is less expensive than war."

Let's say you have a house on a full 1 acre lot. Near the edge of your property in your backyard, there is a huge hornet nest. It grows bigger every year. During the Spring and Summer, at least once a week, one of your children gets stung by one of the hornets. You've made purchase after purchase after purchase of insect repellant and sprayed it near the home and on your children. But it doesn't work. Finally Autumn comes and your kids can relax in the cool weather. But next year, the nest will be bigger. And so on.

You tell me what the appropriate action is in this case. Obviously, the answer is you high-tail it over to the nest with some protective gear on and you do what you have to do to destroy the nest. Set fire to it, poison it, whatever. And once the nest is eradicated, your family is then liberated and so is your wallet. No more expensive repellant treatments. The best course of action is also the least expensive course of action.
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