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Postby greeney2 » Thu May 01, 2014 8:11 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Philip

After a quick look in my Bible not recognizing the Gospel of Philip or Thomas, found information about them above in Wikipedia. Would have helped yourself if you had given some actual links to your statements like Halfabo asked for, because they are not in Genesis concerning the cave. I'm not even sure they would all be in your own readings from just skimming the link above, and a few other links within that to Thomas, Gnostic, etc. etc. This may be part of your belief system, from what I have read in it (very little).
Alalu wrote:The first statement was a figure of speech for the most part. You chose to take it literally which indicates that you are only interested in lobbing insults and will grasp at anything to do so.

The statements after that are what I believe and what I stand for. One of the major complaints about Christians, which I believe is valid, is that they are obsessed with death because they mistakenly believe that that is what Jesus was about. They celebrate his death rather than his life. Example, Mel Gibson.

Not only have I read the Bible numerous times, I have read many of the works upon which it was based. And if it weren't for my ancestors there would be no Protestant Church on Earth and most likely no Catholic Church either since it would have been destroyed a long time ago.


Figure of speech? So what did that actually mean as a response to what I said, or why Halfabo thinks you are embellishing? Secondly, your statement about Jesus are incorrect, or just do not believe in the New Testament, You use your own Gospel of Philip stated above, it is particularly important it does not talk about the Crucifixion or Resurrection, or that Jesus is Lord, that he arose from the dead, or why he died on the cross. Last, maybe you have, or have not read the Bible numerous times, but if your dying many times was a "figure of speech", I doubt if you ever died or ever read the Bible once. I believe Halfabo said, he has actually died twice, presumably his heart actually stopped and he was brought back--hence an actual near death experience. Big claim without your ancestors there would be no Protestant Church or Catholic Church. Who probably does not have ancestry or blood that goes back to the Days of Jesus somehow, or for that matter we all helped build the Pyramids. See how ridicules you sound?
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Postby Halfabo » Thu May 01, 2014 10:47 pm

Alalu wrote:The first statement was a figure of speech for the most part.


Oh, of course. "The God of the universe is unknowable". Sure I've heard that used as a figure of speech thousands of times. Once again your statement is false.

Alalu wrote:You chose to take it literally which indicates that you are only interested in lobbing insults and will grasp at anything to do so.


I have no interest in lobbing insults at anyone. I just comment on what I see. And what I see in you, I've seen hundreds of times in this forum and others. I see someone with no knowledge of the subject being discussed, yet with a desire to be seen as "wise and worldly". Sorry but, the facade is too transparent to be effective.

Alalu wrote:The statements after that are what I believe and what I stand for.


Hyperbole and falsehood?

Alalu wrote:One of the major complaints about Christians, which I believe is valid, is that they are obsessed with death because they mistakenly believe that that is what Jesus was about. They celebrate his death rather than his life.


I do not know of any Christian who is obsessed with death. If anything they are all obsessed with life.

As for celebrating the Death of Jesus, that is another erroneous statement. Christians venerate, appreciate and honor the Death of Jesus. They do not celebrate it. Here is another point in which you do not understand Christianity. If it were not for the Death of Jesus, we would not have life.

Christians do celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus. But, from your other statements I believe it is likely you do not believe in that either.

Alalu wrote:Not only have I read the Bible numerous times, I have read many of the works upon which it was based.


If you have read the Bible "numerous times" as you claim, it is obvious that you understood none of it.

Your second statement is also false. The Bible was not based on any other source in any instance. Each and every book of the Bible is an original work by the author sited in that work. Every part of the Bible has been verified and confirmed as original. And the Bible has withstood the test of time. Not just two thousand years, since the time of Jesus but back to the earliest books of the Old Testament.

It is my guess that you have not read the Bible but, have relied on false commentaries and poorly written works by those who have never done any research on the subject.

Alalu wrote:And if it weren't for my ancestors there would be no Protestant Church on Earth and most likely no Catholic Church either since it would have been destroyed a long time ago.


Now this statement is truly sad. It is no more than a desire to seek self importance where none exists. Or perhaps you are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Like I said earlier, I have no desire to insult anyone. But, you do make that very difficult when you make such ridiculous claims. The saddest thing is, I really think you expect people to believe them.


Alalu wrote:The quote is from the Gospel of Phillip.


The Gospel of Phillip is not a valid source. All those books you obviously believe were "banned" from the Bible, were not added to the Bible for good reason. They were forgeries, most were "Gnostic" works. None of them were ever accepted by any of the Church from the first days it was founded. Many of the works such as Phillip, were written over two hundred years after the time of Christ. Unlike the writings of the New Testament which were all written within forty years of Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection. The writings of the New Testament were written by men who knew Christ. That's why they were held as sacred. And that is why all those others were rejected, they had no importance to the early Church.
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Postby Alalu » Fri May 02, 2014 3:30 pm

Good grief! Talk about pointless. You make a lot of assumptions and all of them are wrong. And you contradicted yourself with the "banned from the Bible" comment. How can something be banned if it didn't preexist? How do you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls?

And who decided that one book was acceptable and another not, even when they were by the same authors? Completely arbitrary. Books were in one day, out the next.

You are not one of those people who thinks the world was created 6,000 years ago are you?

Everything I said is correct.
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Postby Alalu » Fri May 02, 2014 3:45 pm

No one decides which books I can and can't read. Your attitudes towards the Bible are tantamount to book burning. That's exactly what the Nicene Council did.
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Postby Halfabo » Fri May 02, 2014 11:26 pm

Alalu wrote:Good grief! Talk about pointless. You make a lot of assumptions and all of them are wrong.


I have reached conclusions based on what you have said. Your claim that I am in error does not disprove anything I have said. If I am wrong, prove it. Offer some sort of concrete evidence of your claims. Your mere assertion does not prove your claims.


Alalu wrote:And you contradicted yourself with the "banned from the Bible" comment. How can something be banned if it didn't preexist?


I haven't contradicted myself in any statement. I have quoted the claims of others who have expressed the same erroneous beliefs that you have expressed. It has been those, like you who have claimed those books were banned. Hence the quotation marks around the word "banned".


Alalu wrote: How do you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls?


Do you even have any idea of what is contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls? What is in the Dead Sea Scrolls is the exact same Old Testament that is contained in the Bible. It was written and hidden by the Jews who were at Masada. They are not the works of "Essenes" they were not written by "Gnostics". They do not contain any of the false teachings or error ridden documents of any of the cults that were around fifteen hundred years ago. You might want to do some actual research before you make more false claims.

Alalu wrote:And who decided that one book was acceptable and another not, even when they were by the same authors? Completely arbitrary. Books were in one day, out the next.


Again you are wrong. There was nothing arbitrary about what was accepted for canonization and what was not. Each book was authenticated and verified. The authorship of each book was verified long before the Nicene Counsel. The Nicene Counsel did not choose the books that were included for canonization. If anything all they did was to make sure they had all the books that were available to the Church. Again, do some research.


Alalu wrote:You are not one of those people who thinks the world was created 6,000 years are you?


This is totally off the subject being discussed. My particular beliefs on the age of the earth have nothing to do with what we are discussing. But, I have seen this tactic many times in the past. You know you cannot keep up your charade, so you throw in a red herring occasionally to distract, hoping that others will not catch on that you have no clue what you are talking about.


Alalu wrote:No one decides which books I can and can't read. Your attitudes towards the Bible are tantamount to book burning. That's exactly what the Nicene Council did.


No one is telling you what books you can or cannot read. Your choice of reading material is totally up to you. But, you cannot use bogus sources to claim that you have any knowledge of the Bible or Christianity. If you can't find factual and accurate information to discuss the topic, you just make yourself look foolish.

Alalu wrote:Everything I said is correct.


Actually, nothing you have said has been correct. Your assertion of your correctness does not make you correct. I really wish you had the wherewithal to discuss the topic. It would make this far more interesting. As it is, these "high school" theology arguments you present do get rather boring.
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Postby Halfabo » Fri May 02, 2014 11:29 pm

Hey Tom,

Sorry I let your thread get derailed. I know it is totally off topic now, perhaps you would like to redirect. But, you know me when it come to "outhouse theologians"
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Postby Alalu » Sat May 03, 2014 3:23 pm

Halfabo wrote:
Actually, nothing you have said has been correct. Your assertion of your correctness does not make you correct. I really wish you had the wherewithal to discuss the topic. It would make this far more interesting. As it is, these "high school" theology arguments you present do get rather boring.

See, more wild unsubstantiated insults. How can I discuss the topic when all you do is make accusations! I WAS discussing the topic when you rudely interrupted with endless insults. Yes you have chased many people off the BV and that's why no one is left. It's a ghost town because of people like you. Ass. My last post to the BlackVault.
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Postby Halfabo » Sat May 03, 2014 9:43 pm

Alalu wrote:See, more wild unsubstantiated insults. How can I discuss the topic when all you do is make accusations! I WAS discussing the topic when you rudely interrupted with endless insults. Yes you have chased many people off the BV and that's why no one is left. It's a ghost town because of people like you. Ass. My last post to the BlackVault.


I have read and reread everything I have posted. There have been no "wild unsubstantiated insults" in any of my posts. I have disagreed with you. I have pointed out that the level of discussion you have presented here is not up to the quality normally presented in this forum. You seem to be overly sensitive to criticism. If your feelings are so easily bruised, perhaps an adult discussion forum is not the place for you. And again, that is not an insult, it is an observation.

With this new claim, once again, you are incorrect. Your first post in this thread was on topic, somewhat. Directly following your first post, I entered my post. In my first post, I addressed the opening topic. I did not address you at all.

Your second post was completely off topic. You left the subject of whether Christians should evangelize or not. Your second post was about where a particular message originated and had nothing to do with what should be done with that message once it is received.

It was indeed you who took the thread off topic. I responded to your errors in reasoning afterward. I have not insulted you in any of our exchanges. I have addressed your statements and having heard them many times in the past, I was completely aware of their origins and their flaws from the original sources. Perhaps I should not have addressed them in this thread. They are all for a different discussion under the proper topic heading.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 04, 2014 9:13 am

There are 2 places on the board that will generate a lot of debate, and sometimes it gets darn right hostile. Religion and war forums are proof we all know about from work. so Never talk religion or politics at work. Well, we do it here and it leads to a lot of disagreement. During the Bush years in the war forum, you practically had to wear kevlar to be safe. :)

The religion debates are not much different, because we have had some really vehement debates in this forum. None more divided than from the Atheists in the group vs. believers. I'm probably the worse Catholic (thats what we all believe), and can easily get my dander up, even from other Christian religions, but the arguments with the atheists were brutal at times.

Alalu, yes you found some debate in this thread, but that is what happens when you give an opinion, that strikes a nerve. And when that happens, sometimes it just goes down hill fast, but believe me from the history of this place, this was mild. As far as your comments about people chasing people out of here and its like a ghost town, that is just not true. Tweeter and Facebook, has taken a big hit on message boards like this, and why participation has suffered on all message boards. People just want to write a 10 word meaningless reply, take pictures of lunch, and it scrolls away the next day. This is a little more meaningful IMHO, topics are archived, and go on.

If you got your feathers ruffled, you are not alone, we all do. Your choice to stick around, I hope you do. And know Halfabo does too. Agree to disagree.
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Postby frrostedman » Thu May 15, 2014 9:29 pm

Halfabo wrote:Those who are able to evangelize do. There are some who would like to but, are wise enough to know cannot.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Each member of the Body of Christ has their own job to do. They are either placed in positions that fit their skills or God gives them the skills they need to fit the position they find themselves in. Those who do not evangelize are not trying to keep salvation to themselves. It is just that they have other jobs they are suited to. When the time comes, when the circumstances are are right, when they are talking to the right people to be effective, God will tell them to speak and they will speak. God gives the commands, we follow them. If we try to take it upon ourselves to do what we THINK God wants us to do, we usually foul it up and He has to repair the damage.

I agree with everything you said. I was more trying to address the idea (unbelievers' mindset) that Christians who evangelize are just obnoxious, inconsiderate people trying to score points. If a professed believer is truly a believer then it follows that the believer would want to talk about Christ to anyone willing to hear.

I wasn't suggesting that any Christian who doesn't evangelize is a fake-Christian. I was trying to say that any Christian who does evangelize is doing so out of genuine concern and from a true heartfelt desire.

Thanks for participating, bro.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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