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Christians? Answer a few simple questions.

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby Alalu » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:15 pm

Truth is not measured by the number of people who believe it. The big religions are still around because there are large, established organizations that promote them. However, one might say that people don't hang on to lies; they hang on to truth, as they understand it. Others would say that society hangs on to the lies they like best. So it depends on your perspective. I tend to believe that society gravitates towards polarizing ideologies, like conservatism and liberalism. What could be more polarizing than 2 versions of the same religion, or 3?

Just because you choose to believe in a religion such as Christianity you should not exclude all other information. The Sumerian texts indicate that the Annunaki were religious themselves, which is surprising for a race hundreds of thousands of years more advanced. And one should not attempt to entwine faith based ideas with scientific based ones, two different systems of thought.

Before rejecting the Sumerian texts consider the depth of the story. The details are high and include mundane events. The story is not some grandiose fairy tale or religious foundation. The knowledge expressed far exceeds the knowledge of mankind at the time.
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Postby frrostedman » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:54 pm

Alalu wrote:Truth is not measured by the number of people who believe it.

Very well said.

Truth is not relative, subjective, or determined by mere belief or opinion. However, the point I was making when the question was posed, comparing Greek Mythology to Christianity (who is to say which is true?)... is, that Christianity has withstood the test of time and thousands of years of intense scrutiny. That's the difference.

I'm not claiming that because that difference exists, therefore Christianity is necessarily true. I'm only saying there is a difference between many of the old Pagan belief systems and Christianity.

I think it's just downright silly for my Pagan brother to kneel before his altar and pray to Pan, or, some God of the Eastern Winds, etc. The reason I and most people think he is silly can be explained by simple observation. His prayers for prosperity and such, to these silly Pagan gods and goddesses, get him nowhere. He's still just as miserable, depressed, and broke as he was 40 years ago when he took up Paganism and Wicca.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby Alalu » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:33 pm

The only point I would make here is not a religious one. And that is that we might consider that most of the religions which pre-existed the modern ones may have been based on real beings and events. Its just that we have taken the most simplistic view of the old religions, assuming that they were just based on ignorance of nature.

If the Sumerian texts are correct then all the religions have a common origin. The characters have different names in each culture because they named people based on cultural notions and local language. And the Annunaki didn't tell us their real names, and that makes perfect sense. Humans worshipping them as gods was probably frowned upon by their civilization. This would be true of humans if we traveled to another world and creatures there worshipped us as gods.

Eden is Edin.

If apes became intelligent enough to develop language and some form of society then anyone portraying themselves as gods to the apes would be looked down upon.
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Postby frrostedman » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:49 pm

Alalu wrote:The only point I would make here is not a religious one. And that is that we might consider that most of the religions which pre-existed the modern ones may have been based on real beings and events. Its just that we have taken the most simplistic view of the old religions, assuming that they were just based on ignorance of nature.

If the Sumerian texts are correct then all the religions have a common origin. The characters have different names in each culture because they named people based on cultural notions and local language. And the Annunaki didn't tell us their real names, and that makes perfect sense. Humans worshipping them as gods was probably frowned upon by their civilization. This would be true of humans if we traveled to another world and creatures there worshipped us as gods.

Eden is Edin.

If apes became intelligent enough to develop language and some form of society then anyone portraying themselves as gods to the apes would be looked down upon.

Yes. It's fascinating to think about. Where I do believe the ancient Sumerian texts and the bible possibly intersect is in Genesis and the story of Enoch. Enoch "walked with God" and is one of only a couple of biblical figures who never physically died. I purchased the Book of Enoch (banned from official canon) and the account is just incredible. In the bible, these "nephilim" (translated per Sitchin as those who "came down") were gigantic. The Book of Enoch describes them as either 450 feet tall (Godzilla-sized?) or even 45 feet tall if it's a misprint and 45 feet is still almost as tall as a 5-story building.

Whatever happened with these Nephilim--and I believe they were corrupt, fallen angels--they mucked up the planet really bad and impregnated human women who bore giant offspring--so the story goes. The bible doesn't go quite so deep but, the situation was obviously quite dire, as it prompted God to flood the planet and kill everyone off.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby Alalu » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:48 pm

I'm reading Enoch now and it is incredible. When you consider that Enoch probably lived at a time when no human could read or write the simplistic interpretations of Enoch make sense. It sounds like they were leading him around to teach him knowledge that they wanted humans to have for some reason. Perhaps they were simply setting up Enoch to be a leader.

Keep in mind that in Biblical times it was customary to embelish the life of people who were deemed great. For example, they would multiply their age by 10. So anytime I hear numbers in the Bible I ignore them. The original works from which the Bible was derived contained sub-stories and coded language. The Torah being the perfect example.

The giants might not have been physically large but rather they were mental giants. Just my opinion. When you are exposed to enough ancient works you start to draw a picture of how things played out. And you see why human writings about early events which occured centuries later ended up the way they did.
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:44 pm

Alalu wrote:I'm reading Enoch now and it is incredible. When you consider that Enoch probably lived at a time when no human could read or write the simplistic interpretations of Enoch make sense. It sounds like they were leading him around to teach him knowledge that they wanted humans to have for some reason. Perhaps they were simply setting up Enoch to be a leader.

Keep in mind that in Biblical times it was customary to embelish the life of people who were deemed great. For example, they would multiply their age by 10. So anytime I hear numbers in the Bible I ignore them. The original works from which the Bible was derived contained sub-stories and coded language. The Torah being the perfect example.

The giants might not have been physically large but rather they were mental giants. Just my opinion. When you are exposed to enough ancient works you start to draw a picture of how things played out. And you see why human writings about early events which occured centuries later ended up the way they did.


As far as numbers go... I believe every word and number is serious business, unless it's a comparison drawn or hyperbole used to emphasize a point. Other than that, and with the exception of misprints, I believe all of Scripture is the unequivocal word of our Creator.

Unless the Book of Enoch is a forgery, then giants means what it says. Giants.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby Alalu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:16 am

God himself said, "A good man brings forth good from his storehouse of good. An evil man brings forth evil from his storehouse of evil."

Look around at this universe. What do you see?
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Postby Allan » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:33 am

You have to remember God gave us free will. He did not make us robots. This age we are living in is a time for each of us to show (from how we act and think) for whom we are going to serve God or satan.
That is why we are here. God wants to know which side we will choose to be on

It is that simple.

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Postby frrostedman » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:14 pm

Allan wrote:You have to remember God gave us free will. He did not make us robots. This age we are living in is a time for each of us to show (from how we act and think) for whom we are going to serve God or satan.
That is why we are here. God wants to know which side we will choose to be on

It is that simple.

allan

Yes indeed Allan and thank you for responding. I say we are not robots. We have autonomy. But not 100% autonomy. We have autonomy in all things except for one. We cannot control whether or not our hearts and minds respond to the calling of Christ through the Holy Spirit. This work--and only this work--God is responsible for. And if you'll allow me, I'll try to explain.

First: Is anyone born a believer? No. No man or woman is ever born in a believing state. Therefore, we are all, until some point in our lives, a part of "the World."

Second: Are those of the world capable of responding spiritually? No. Paul argues in Ephesians that anyone who is of the World, is "spiritually dead." Completely dead, spiritually. Unable to respond.

Third: What did Jesus say we must accomplish before we can be with God in heaven? He said we must be "born again." Think about that. You can't be born unless you're dead.

Fourth: What did Jesus do right after saying these words? He raised Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was in a state of death and decay, unable to respond, unable to do anything on his own power. Jesus did all the work; raised Lazarus from the dead; and obviously emphasized the point He was making in doing so.

Conclusion: We are all born in a state of disbelief, a part of the World, spiritually dead, "children of wrath" according to Paul, incapable of responding to spiritual callings. It takes the work of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and by the saving work of Christ our Lord, to cause us to be born again, into a state of life in Christ.

I will add two last thoughts. Since everyone of the world is a child of wrath, essentially under the influence of Satan, spiritually dead, do you really think we--in that state--would ever choose Christ? Given the facts, every person who ever lived, if left on their own completely, would reject Christ outright. Do you think Christ would have gone through all of the effort, difficulty, and pain... only to have His invitation rejected by the entire World?

And lastly, didn't Jesus make it clear when He spoke in parables, confusing the Jewish high priests? He said quite clearly that His message is intended to be understood only by those HE chooses to understand. Think about that, please. It's deep.
"But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about Jesus being a great teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis
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Postby Patrick_Giyan » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:30 pm

Hi, your thoughts are good and sound. I have something that has some value. I do believe we are born into sin and a state of rejection. I am not convinced about disbelief ! Adam was born or created good in God's eyes and he walked and talked to God. My feelings are all humans know that God exists, it was part of Adam and passed down throught the generations. Sin and rejection are the issue, i think some confuse rejection with disbelief. I from a early age, single digit, found it very natural for the belief in God and Christ. I was accepting but kinda confused, all the stories were powerful and overwhelming for me but in time things became clear and understandable. So i think the human race has the inate belief but choose to reject due to the influence of satan. Free will is what we have from the start as the angels also have, 1/3 of the angels and satan were cast out of heaven for acts against God, rebellion, the same as us. Disobedience is the key !
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