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Christians? Answer a few simple questions.

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Postby frrostedman » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:04 pm

Us Reformed Protestants are huge fans of logic. Let's exercise some simple logic here:

Christians:

1. Do you believe God is all-powerful?
2. Do you believe God is all-knowing?

If the answer to these 2 simple questions is "yes" and it should be... then logic leads us to conclude that the Reformed Protestants have it right --

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing... then He knows what your future holds and He has the power to change it if He chooses. This means that from the beginning of time, God has had full knowledge and full control over who will be redeemed through the work of Christ, and who won't be.

After you get past that--which again is completely based on logical deduction--there is only one question I have left for you.

3. Do you really believe that your saving faith has anything to do with your personal intellect, wisdom, efforts or achievements?

The answer to that one should be obvious. Give all the glory to God, amen.

God bless you everyone.

Happy New Year!

-brother Tom
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby qmark » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:34 pm

Yes to 1 & 2, no to 3, and in my opinion, that doesn't invalidate "free will".

By the way, glad to see you posting, brother Tom.
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Postby greeney2 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:18 am

God may be all knowing but more than one path is always subject to your free will, so God may be all knowing of all you choices, but the decision is left to you. I believe God made this declaration with Adam and Eve, giving them the choice themselves. Wouldn't it been easier for God to never put the forbidden Fruit in the Garden of Eden, since God created everything? He also created the free will to make choices, to either care for what God gave us or not to care, in which case we are responsible for the decision. Otherwise every Jeffery Dalmer, Adolf Hitler, Stalin or Charles Manson, would just be saying God planned for me to do this.
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:28 pm

greeney2 wrote:God may be all knowing but more than one path is always subject to your free will, so God may be all knowing of all you choices, but the decision is left to you.

But is it really?

Beloved St. Paul describes the nonbeliever to be spiritually "dead." Many believe that the episode where Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, was intended as a lesson; a symbolic gesture. Paul tells us that, like Lazarus, we are powerless to take any action on our own. But we can be awoken (in this case spiritually), by and only by the work of Christ through the Holy Spirit. We can make every effort on our own. Using our own free will, we can decide whatever we want to decide. But without that interceding effort on the part of God, we are completely helpless in the matter of saving faith.

I believe God made this declaration with Adam and Eve, giving them the choice themselves. Wouldn't it been easier for God to never put the forbidden Fruit in the Garden of Eden, since God created everything? He also created the free will to make choices, to either care for what God gave us or not to care, in which case we are responsible for the decision. Otherwise every Jeffery Dalmer, Adolf Hitler, Stalin or Charles Manson, would just be saying God planned for me to do this.

On the first part, I took from the bible the strong belief that much of what God does is meant as a lesson for future generations to learn from. The fruit wasn't a mistake, nor (in my opinion) was it a test. God already knew full well that Adam and Eve would fail. But what that fruit has accomplished, is being a stark reminder to trust in God, obey His commands, and not to let anyone tell you any different no matter how intellectual or persuasive they seem to be. Among other things of course. ;)

As far as Hitler, Dahmer, etc. The bible, which I believe to be inerrant and true, says God is not the author of evil. Therefore, I wholeheartedly believe God did not personally direct their actions. However, being (obvious) unbelieving, evil people, they certainly had no need for God's intervention to come up with their heinous schemes. What God did do, in His state of being all-powerful and all-knowing, was allow those things to come to pass. Knowing God like we know Him, we can only assume that good will come of all of it. Maybe not today, maybe not until 2,000 more years come to pass, or maybe good has already come of it.
Last edited by frrostedman on Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:35 pm

qmark wrote:Yes to 1 & 2, no to 3, and in my opinion, that doesn't invalidate "free will".

By the way, glad to see you posting, brother Tom.

I believe free will applies to every action we take, with the exception of those very few times when the Holy Spirit takes control. One of those very few times, in my opinion, is when the unbeliever crosses over and becomes a believer. I give God all the credit for that part. The planting of seeds, the nurturing of them, and the decisions and actions by the believer after the crossing over.. that's all us (though still indirectly through God inasmuch as He allowed them to come to pass).

It probably sounds crazy. But I believe God is at least indirectly responsible for every single thing that ever has or ever will occur in this universe. Even the dust particle that floats by under the lampshade.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:31 am

How can we fail unless we have a free will to disobey God? Otherwise we would simply never disobey, or what God commands us, because we do not know what a free will is.
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Postby qmark » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:42 pm

frrostedman wrote:I believe free will applies to every action we take, with the exception of those very few times when the Holy Spirit takes control.


The Bible tells us in 1st Thess. "do not quench the Spirit".
The Spirit takes control by us humbly turning control over to Him, otherwise we are "quenching the Spirit". So, even this is free will.
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Postby Alalu » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:03 pm

Fwiw, I think the answer to 1 and 2 is maybe. Then number 3 can't be answered easily. I have a theory. What if the Biblical story of the Garden of Eden was a rewritten version of the Annunaki Edin? In the biblical version the question is, why would God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden in the first place?

What if the garden was actually an Annunaki base? It would need all the things the Annunaki would need in their expedition to Earth, food, water, crops, weapons, and a library. The Sumerian texts tell us of something called "M-E". This M-E were modules containing knowledge of certain things that had to be transferred to members of the expedition under certain circumstances. It contained info on how to plant crops, how to build structures, and even knowledge of how to launch nuclear weapons, which they used on Sodom and Gomorrah.

And they needed workers which is why they created Humans (Adamu and Adapo). Where would they put the Humans but in the lab where they were created? And that lab was in Edin. But in order for the Humans to be useful they would have to be taught to carry out orders. So they were loosed into the garden and told not to "eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". They had to suspect that the Humans would disobey.

The long version of the biblical story of the GoE tells how one of the first things that Adam and Eve noticed after expulsion from the GoE was darkness. They had never seen darkness before. Sounds like a lab environment to me.

Adam and Eve had seen the Annunaki use the M-E and that is how Eve knew how to access it. Other Annunaki were not allowed into the Edin without permission and probably not without an escort and they were only given access to what was required for the mission. So Eve understood the importance of this fruit.

Its one deep rabbit hole.
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Postby qmark » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:14 pm

The following verse came to mind:

But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. ( although, in my opinion, it's not just old women ) On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness

I understand the allure, I was there myself.
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Postby Alalu » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:31 pm

But who determines what is fable? Historians tell us they can prove the past by looking at ancient records. But they include some and exclude others. And based on what? Just prejudice and choice. What makes the records of ancient Rome or Greece any more believable than the records of the Sumerians?
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