The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

Someone has gone too far...

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby frrostedman » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:35 pm

at1with0 wrote:I think you have a better chance of changing your lifestyle than your skin color


Sounds logical. But that was precisely God's point. The flock that He personally shepherded and lavished with blessings and love, had turned so wicked, they literally couldn't change their ways. They were in it that deep.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby at1with0 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:16 pm

I could never acknowledge a god or human who knew exactly what was going to happen, let it happen, and proceed anyway to put things in motion that would lead to genocide.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby blackvault » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:18 am

at1with0 wrote:I could never acknowledge a god or human who knew exactly what was going to happen, let it happen, and proceed anyway to put things in motion that would lead to genocide.


I always find that part of the debate fascinating. If you do not believe G(g)od would allow that to happen, then you take away free will from his creation, and we do not have the free will we are led to believe, but rather, we are programmed to do what God wants, or doesn't want.

Would you prefer a world without free will?
-----
John Greenewald, Jr.
The Black Vault Website Owner / Operator
http://www.theblackvault.com
User avatar
blackvault
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: North Hollywood, Ca.

Postby at1with0 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:00 am

To illustrate how you're wrong, let me ask you a question. Does heaven exist? If so, do the people there have free will?


Let's see, a world without suffering in exchange for our free will. Since the world would be without suffering, lack of free will would not upset us one bit, a lot like a soldier not exactly having a 100% free will. We would also never get bored if the world were without suffering.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby blackvault » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:30 am

I am not saying I advocate for suffering and genocide, please, don't get me wrong. I am just saying, it's an interesting part of the debate that in the same breath (not you, I am saying in the debate) you can't say God gives us free will to make the choices we feel are right, and wrong, and learn from the wrong - but you can't do X, Y and Z.

I am not ignoring your question on heaven, but think that's a different debate altogether. The question goes well beyond whether heaven exists, but moreso, goes to the definition of what heaven is.
-----
John Greenewald, Jr.
The Black Vault Website Owner / Operator
http://www.theblackvault.com
User avatar
blackvault
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: North Hollywood, Ca.

Postby greeney2 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:54 am

Free will is about individual choice, and behind most all suffering is some act of inflicting pain, be it a war, terrorism, genocide, addictions, crimes, or even just normal life acts of unkindness or thoughtlessness. Kids do these things, adults do these things, both sexes do these things, we are all guided by knowing right from wrong, and the free will to do the right thing, Or Wrong things.

I agree Heaven is another subject, life hereafter, what happens in eternity? I think we have had many discussions with our now "abandoned ship" atheists, who hopefully all disappeared because they did see the light, and won't admit it. Only one thing is for sure, the only way to find out this question, is what they say, "Nobody gets out of this alive". Or maybe Everyone does in the next life, but the answer to free will, is which direction will you take? Up or down! :lol:

May be like an elevator, only you know the floor you are headed for and push the up or down button, and God is the Elevator man greeting you saying, "Going Up, or going down", and you have to answer him. :lol:
greeney2
 
Posts: 9595
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby at1with0 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:18 am

The heaven question is too relevant to ignore. I would surmise that most people who believe in heaven also believe people in heaven have free will. Thus, the implication is that it IS possible to never suffer and to never commit a crime against another AND still have free will.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby blackvault » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:36 am

at1with0 wrote:The heaven question is too relevant to ignore. I would surmise that most people who believe in heaven also believe people in heaven have free will. Thus, the implication is that it IS possible to never suffer and to never commit a crime against another AND still have free will.


You operate off of a lot of assumptions there. IF heaven exists, and there is no pain that exists there, AND people are not "pre-programmed" to do 'only good', AND you assume there is free will after all those points - I find a huge problem with that. IF you then juxtapose that with an Earth, and a time, that has no pain, suffering, and genocide, and life is all hunky dory with love, peace, happiness, rainbows and puppies, what, then would be the difference between our world - and living eternally behind the gates of Heaven living in bliss with God? What would, or rather could, we strive for? Why would we try to achieve it? There would be no distinct line between our lives, and "heaven" where we go in the afterlife.

I believe that God would want his creations the choice to choose. The choice between right and wrong, living and dying, killing and peace, etc. It gives us "something to live for" but also offers a something to look forward to when we pass on.

The evil doers - they will live eternally in a life of pain and suffering in hell. The do-gooders and those that strive to be perfect, will live eternally in heaven.

You need to really think hard about what it would be to live in a world of all puppies and rainbows all the time. Heaven would lose it's luster, and our lives would be, well, rather boring. Not that I am all for peace and good. But LEARNING right and wrong -- doing wrong and learning from that (aside from mass genocide and killing) is what MAKES US HUMAN. Of course, there is a line that once passed, I would think there is no coming back, but who I am to decide?
-----
John Greenewald, Jr.
The Black Vault Website Owner / Operator
http://www.theblackvault.com
User avatar
blackvault
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: North Hollywood, Ca.

Postby at1with0 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:04 am

Why would you think a world of puppies and rainbows all the time is what heaven would even remotely be like? THAT is a big assumption.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby greeney2 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:49 am

We can only imagine what Heaven would be like, just as imagining what Hell would be like, because nobody ever returned, with exception of Jesus who arose from the dead. One would assume it is so glorious our only vision while we are living is the things we know best as the most innocent and pure.

Nobody knows what the definition of free will may be in Heaven, but we do know what it means while we are living in this life. What would free will mean in a life where evil or bad thoughts are simply non-existent, which was the way The Garden of Eden was for Adam and Eve . They were given a perfect world, and their hearts and minds were pure. They were given one rule, and they found a way to bow to temptation. Will Heaven be void of temptation, its all in the Lords Prayer. We say it a million times, but does anyone really digest and think about the words it contains.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9595
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest