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Postby Alalu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:07 pm

Nuclear Close Call 1961
Just thought this might warm people up a bit.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:47 pm

Saw that too and was going to post it, but didn't. I think we also had a incident where 2 warheads were accidentally dropped off the coast into the ocean, can not recall the exact details, but think it was also off the Carolina's.
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Postby Alalu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:38 pm

And these are accidents without someone actually trying.
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Postby Alalu » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:04 pm

greeney2 wrote:I do not agree the western USA is full of radiation.

Interesting, I just saw a program that showed how the gov is using railroad trains to dispose of large amounts of radioactively contaminated soil. They built a large disposal plant, at our expense, that takes contaminated soil off of the rail cars and disposes of it, sort of. Quite the involved process. Much of it is automated. They wash the rail cars and send them back out to get more. This is a pretty large scale operation. Wouldn't need that if the problem I mentioned wasn't all too real. They dump the soil out on the ground where it will sit for a century or two.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:47 pm

Alalu and others,

That near miss in 1961 has been documented over 15 years ago in a book by Howard Mooreland called "The Secret That Exploded."

In Howard Moorland's book he outlines the number of accidents and near misses that the USA has had with nuclear weapons as well as nuclear reactors used commercially. Browns Ferry, in Alabama, of course Three Mile Island, and also The Fermi Plant outside of Detroit.

When I saw that story being reintroduced back into the news I realized immediately that it was more scare tactics to keep people thinking a certain way and of course ....being AFRAID of any shadow they wanted to throw at us. I have known about it for about 15 years.

Also I have known about the loss of the hydrogen bombs from the mid air refueling accident and how one of them was found off the coast of Spain as well as one on Spanish soil.


THe sensors ...of which you speak..I have been around gamma alarms several times as well as radiation friskers..or portal monitors. Observed people doing a weekly testing on all this gear..including the gamma alarms. A different high energy shielded source is used in testing gamma alarms. You only expose it long enough to set off the alarm for testing then quickly reshield it.

I did not get excited over the news or any of that stuff when the buisness went down in Fukashima , Japan. Not that I was not concerned and observant..but I was not chaffiing at the bit or afrighted as were many Americans.

I carry in my bag to and fro work daily a bottle of Potassisum Iodide..had some for years now before the Japanese incident. Never opened it or used it but it is there. I have since purchased several other bottles. It became suddenly difficult to find when Fukashima went down. Best get yours now..in better times than in a sudden rush. But be careful about taking it..unless you really need to use it. Also about giving it to children.

I also know the Japanese have had an accident or unplanned criticallity at a fuel processing plant which killed two or three fellows back about 10 to 15 years ago. There was a rapid news blackout and cover up back then too.

Unlike so many Americans..I am not going to jump through but so many hoops.

Most people around here with a television and movie education...have no idea how many operating nuclear reactors are going at any one time. They only think around here of the Surry and North Anna commercial plants ..but never think how many are operating at any one time across the bay at the Norfolk Navy Station. SAme thing in San Diego...or up around Everet, Washington or Bremerton. How about around Portsmouth, New Hampshire...Honolulu, Hawaii????

Most Americans ...once again..with a television and movie education have no concept of how many dangerous and nasty items or chemicals are moving through their towns and cities at any given day. Probably best that most of them never know. To many drama queens out there who want someone else to take the RISK out of life for them while they watch television and movies....worship the gods of sports and Joan Rivers et al.



Nuclear materials are shipped daily across this country somewhere ..on a very confidential schedule and on specially managed and secured trains. They are shipped to special destinations where the materials are processed. Certain other special nuclear materials are moved on even more secure trains with an even more highly classified schedule and routing/monitoring. These materials are now handled with the Department of Energy, Department of Transportation, and now Department of Homeland Security.
Nuclear materials are not the only items shipped in this manner..there are others.

Radioactive dirt??? Where do you suggest they put it??? Transport it??

I have seen the photos of the reactor plants removed from olde submarines and placed in huge pipes..welded up...and put into a landfill or storage location..with berms around it..some forty plus olde reactor vessels. The submarine hulls long since scrapped.

IF you look at Bremerton, Washington at the Navy Yard on Google Earth...you will see some 11 or 12 submarines tied up side to side...like sardines. Most of them but one are olde early model 688 hulls....but one of them seems to be an olde 637 class boat...but definitely not a 688. All of them waiting to be scrapped. Where do you think they are going to put the still highly radiated and contaminated reactor vessels and reactor coolant pumps?? I've seen a coolant pump..several of them ...removed from a submarine an placed into a piece of pipe..welded with thick plates on each end ..then shipped out to a storage location.

Most Americans never think about such things..but I do. I dont spend alot of my time concering myself with what is on television or sports...the Redskins, Dallas, or NASCAR. Nor do I concern myself with what Joan Rivers and her Daughter are doing on the red carpet.

As to the detonation of these weapons..I believe they were not satisfied with several of the components or reliability of them in the early models. There was a learning curve. I believe much of this has been miniaturized today...compacted down into smaller sizes and power consumptions to get them going...verses the early designs. Howard Mooreland hints at this in his book.
Also Howard Mooreland speaks of a system put into some of these weapons called...."Dial A Yield." A system where the Hydrogen Enhancement was able to be dialed up or down to raise or lower the Yield of the explosion as needed. This is also another reason for extensive testing. The safety and reliability of these systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial-a-yield


More reliabily. I also know that the delivery systems are much more accurate. The days of weapons needed in the megaton ranges are over. Usually with todays accuracy in the kiloton yeilds will do for most. SAme with conventional guided weapons ..high weight conventional bombs/rockets are used only for the most hardened targets. The main reason for the high yield weapons in the past was that the deivery system was not that accurate in the early days hence the inaccuracy was made up by larger yield bombs. Howard Mooreland also discusses this aspect of these weapons.

I am sure it took some time and research to get dial a yield to where it was more reliable and successful.

Hope this helps,
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:29 am

Alalu, yes it is true that places in Nevada are dump sites for contaminated things like dirt and other things, and it is true that these things will lay for centuries in these spots. Nevada residents don't want it, nobody does, but where else can you put it? What is better, a controlled and well planned disposal site or sites for these things, or go back to unregulated dumping in rivers, streams, landfills everywhere etc. My company had a fork lift hit a 55 gal drum of cleaning fluid in a parking area. They were required, since they are a government contractor, to remove all the asphalt 20' around, dig a deep hole, where the leak happened, and it was all trucked off to one of these disposal sites, probably in Nevada. We had to have very tight controls over things like acetone use, rags and cheesecloth, used to clean parts, disposed of in controlled red cans, emptied and documented daily, we had to measure out quantity of acetone brought into the plant, measured the usage distributed to workers, and turn back in on a daily basis. The cost and expense of this was ridiculous when you consider any of us could go to any Home Depot and buy acetone, use it in your garage, with zero control or accountability to its use. We have gone to extreme overkill on what is defined as toxic waste to companies, but some of it is products we can buy at any hardware store. Obviously real toxic waste is a problem and disposal of such, as well as nuclear products waste, and what better place is there but the most desolate parts of the western desert, that are about as inhospitable as the moon? I still contend the west is not full of radiation, as it was made to sound like we have it drifting and floating everywhere we go. Toxic waste worldwide, and its disposal is a problem with worldwide use of these things, where do we put it, and what is the expense to all of us? What is the price to pay if it is not disposed of properly?
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Postby orangetom1999 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:51 am

Exactly correct Greeny2...precisely. They are so anal about some of this stuff that we can go to Lowe's or Home Depot..the orange place and get off the shelf.

However...acetone is some weird stuff to me. It smells more like airplane glue...and even in HOme depot and Lowes..you need to be careful with it. I believe it is also one of the ingredients in nail polish remover....also very commonly found in homes. You can defintely get stoned with the stuff...so care is needed when using it in closed enviornments in addition to its flamability. I've been in compartments on ships where the painters are using that stuff..and I yeild the space gladly to them. Have at it ..bon appetit. I dont like the smell of it..even commercial ship board paints...very very strong. It cannot be good for brain cells long term..nor lungs.

I was here on this James River ..many years ago when the Kepone Posioning of this river took place from a manufacturer up in Hopewell, Virginia. Hopewell is just up river from the 1607 Jamestown site of the early settlement.

I was the watch on top of an olde 637 class submarine under construction and we were testing the firing of dummy torpedos into the river. A tugboat would pick them up and bring them back when they had been fired and floated to the surface. My job was to make sure the tug was clear before they fired the torpedo/torpedo tube. But I remember standing topside all day and observing hundreds of fish dead..floating by the boat on the outgoing tide and then back in on the ingoing tide. An olde timer came up and relieved me and I pointed out how man dead fish I saw. He told me that those were the ones which had bloated dead and floated to the top. There were undoubtedly hundreds more which had not yet bloated and come up. This went on day after day before we found out in the news what was causing it.

Now today the river has come back. The other night I walked out onto a pier about 4 am and watched about 15 or 20 Striped Bass feeding on minnows under a strong pier light. I love to watch these fish in their natural habitat. But so many years ago ..it was awful seeing the James River die in such a manner.

I remember there was a spill here in a dry dock of some radioactive water. The dry dock was measured and surveyed carefully as to exactly where the spill was located. This was carefully mapped out on the dry dock floor and the concrete busted up with power hammers and the busted concrete hauled off in 55 gallon drums to be disposed properly and carefully.

Your narrative reminded me of this incident.


This also happend years later under a bridge leading off an interstate highway. A circulation pump was tied down on the back of the tractor trailer and as the tractor exited the off ramp the top of the pump was to high. The heigth had not been carefully measured for that overpass. The top of the pump hit the overpass and the pump spilled off the bed of the truck and some internal water came ouf of the pump and onto the highway. SAme thing again....mapped off...surveyed ..and the concret busted up to a certain carefully measured depth and then carted off in carefully controlled 55 gallon drums for disposal. I dont know how much such a job costs...but it "Ain't Cheap!!"

Want to see anal...look at the check list of what has to be considered and planned when they move such cargos..around the country and all the various departments involved. I was trained in one of those classes on Hazardous materials and what goes into just loading it onto the trucks..the truck/trucks alone meeting the requirements/standards...much less the transporting end of moving it about the country. You want to make sure every T is crossed and every I dotted before you sign a paper saying all the requirements have been met as per proceedures.

I am no longer involved in that end of the job but it was indeed an education and awakening to be briefed on what is involved. Until then I had no idea how much was done to get a cargo of that type ready to ship out.
You are in the X ring on that one Greeny2.

You know the pollution story which stunned me when first I read of it had to do with some kind of huge mountain of plastic garbage floating around out in the Pacific Ocean..from the surface down very deep and a huge circle just floating out in a circular pattern in the Pacific Ocean. I was a bit stunned when I first read of it.

Men should be good stewards of the nature with which we have been Blessed. I have no problem with this. But sometimes it is done way overboard in the manner it is carried out.

Agree ..where are you going to put the stuff?? Well said Greeny2. I also agree..the west is not as full of nuclear radiation in the manner so many fear. Same with Hiroshima and Nakasaki.

Thanks,
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Postby Alalu » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:56 pm

OT makes some good points. I guess I shouldn't tell him the potasium iodide won't do him any good. But we should be glad they are anal about radioactive contamination. People don't fear what they can't see.

My point about the dirt was, where does it come from? It comes from the test sites in the west, Nevada, NM, Idaho, etc. No the contamination isn't floating around but it is there in the ground. I worked at a site where wild animals (deer, rabbits, coyotes) were setting off the rad alarms every now and then because they had walked across contaminated ground. Its a place you don't want to be.

I've toured a facility where they decommission reactors and they had a "pit", which is basically a giant concrete pool, only 10 times deeper, and if you simply looked over the edge of the pool you would be contaminated. Megahot! All the work is done remotely.

I don't think the James river contamination was from the subs.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:27 am

Alalu wrote:OT makes some good points. I guess I shouldn't tell him the potasium iodide won't do him any good. But we should be glad they are anal about radioactive contamination. People don't fear what they can't see.

My point about the dirt was, where does it come from? It comes from the test sites in the west, Nevada, NM, Idaho, etc. No the contamination isn't floating around but it is there in the ground. I worked at a site where wild animals (deer, rabbits, coyotes) were setting off the rad alarms every now and then because they had walked across contaminated ground. Its a place you don't want to be.

I've toured a facility where they decommission reactors and they had a "pit", which is basically a giant concrete pool, only 10 times deeper, and if you simply looked over the edge of the pool you would be contaminated. Megahot! All the work is done remotely.

I don't think the James river contamination was from the subs.


Alalu,

Yes..I agree...the Potassium Iodide will do nothing for being further contaminated or radiated if you are exposed under certain conditions. You will just pick up more contamination and radiation. All it does is protect certain internal organs which are more suceptable to this energy. The question someone needs to know is what are the energy levels to which one has been exposed??

I know about the occasional animals transiting these areas and setting off certain monitoring equipment. I have also seen this same type of monitoring equipment go off when exposed to people who have eaten significant quantities of certain lettuce, also bannanas. I've also seen this equipment go off when exposed to the Coleman lantern mantles.

The average American does not know that certain common items are emitting levels of radiation. Who would have thought that certain potassium levels from bannanas can set off some of this monitoring equipment. But once again..it is the source and levels from this source which is key.

For you see Alalu...When we are so often afrighted by the media in reporting this stuff...not very often are levels mentioned..either in radiation or contamination. In Siervents, Rems or in curies. I know automatically to look for this information. Otherwise I know that something is missing and it is a good possibility that this is a political scare tactic by the body politic and media shilling for them.

That is how I knew that this story about the safety devices on those early bombs is not a new story..but it has been awhile since that story has even been reported. Long enough for this rehashed story to be good cannon fodder for a uninformed public to jump through hoops for the body politic. Long enough to scare the public again.


You see Alalu..I know that when you reach a contaminatoin level around here of 25,000 micro micro curies contamination can become airborne. YOu dont want to be breathing in these small particles...internally...into your lungs. Above 25,000 micro micro curies per 100 centimeters squared..you work in a glove bag..and sometimes a glove bag with negative ventilation applied. You also often wear double gloves...not single.

Then on the other end...there is radiation..energy. Again it is the amount..or levels...plus exposure time.

I know a fellow who was exposed to 5 rads of radiation in a period of 20 minutes. This is very different from being exposed to that much over two months or longer. This fellow was removed from ever doing any radiation work and moved to the material handliing section of the plant. He never again did nuclear work.

5 Rads in 20 minutes is alot of exposure.

So when you state that you were close to a "Wet Pit" where radioatctive materials were disassembled..I know that it is a radiation level ..not a contamination level..or that any contamination is fixed..not loose...or at least below 25,000 micro micro curies per 100 centimeters squared. Nor were any levels of either radiation or contamination given...stated. Otherwise you would not have been allowed to get that close and certainly not without monitoring equipment on you and special breathing equipment worn. A personal dosimeter and a Thermoluminescent dosimeter badge. My badge is right here on the china cabinet.

There is a wet pit here in this plant where just such radioactive equipment is disassembled by way of remote equipment and so done underwater. Water is a natural shielding for radioactivity...particularly high levels or radioactivity. Fuel cells are stored in wet pits until the decay heat levels can be brought down. Commercial reactor plants have large pools of water where the spent fuel cells are stored....lots of cells as commercial reactors go through alot of fuel..particularly in summer months where they are operating near peak output.

I think you meant to say you would be radiated if you looked over the pit. Not contaminated. You would certainly not be allowed near such a pit with high contamination levels and certainly not without breathing apparatus/respirator and wearing monitoring equipment.

When I see photos or video of reporters visiting the Fukashima plant for a story I know automtaically to see if these reporters/visitors are wearing monitoring equipment and breathing equipment/'respirators...along with a Poopie suit..or disposable coveralls. If they are in full anti contamination clothing or even a wet suit..you know they are in a high rad area/contamination area.

I also know enough to ask..if these people/visitors/reporters even have any idea what they are potentially getting into or are they just dumb enough to look first for a story/headline at any expense.

Nonetheless..I dont run scared at every story of this type coming out of the news media.

I also know that the media and politicians have been making political hay or merchandize out of the huge amount of ignorance in the American public on this issue and any other which can be turned into lucre.

Some of us Alalu..are not going to jump through hoops at every scare story used and misused by the body politic and the media shilling for them. We know enough to think certain things through...and see the questions often not asked or informations not mentioned.



You are correct..in that the poison back then in the James River was a chemical poison called Kepone. It came from a commerical plant way up river in Hopewell, Virginia. It did not come from a nuclear reactor. The result was just as deadly to the life in and around the river which depended on the fish and other foods provided by the James River.

My thanks to all for their posts,
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Postby Nesaie » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:33 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unbeLMd5vQY

There isn't any new-clear rad-dation in the US...no fluoride neither...heh heh heh
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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