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Free Will AND Predestination, BOTH are true...

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Postby sandra » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:08 pm

You know what's old? the whole idea about the bible being history & about control. It's not history when it lives in the minds of many & it is not history when it will live within humanity for eternity.
“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Postby Dragoness » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:32 pm

I wasn't saying the Bible was about control. I was saying that the churches would "interpret" (translate) the Bible to fit what they wanted to control the masses.

When I made my statement, I was thinking back to something a cousin of mine once said when she was talking about Jehovah Witnesses and a couple of experiences I've had with how they do some of their services. My cousin, who had just joined, told me they didn't celebrate birthday's because Birthday's are only mentioned twice in the Bible as being celebrated and bad things happened both times (I've since heard a much better explanation). My thought was, are you really going describe every celebration, or Are you going to describe events that mean something. That was all I meant by history.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:11 am

Dragoness and others,

I wasn't saying the Bible was about control. I was saying that the churches would "interpret" (translate) the Bible to fit what they wanted to control the masses.


In like manner to the post I made about feudalism, royalty, and Divine Right of Kings...yes..that is precisely what many of the Churches did with the Bible..they used it to reinforce the olde Dogma of Divine Right of Kings or Feudalism...Royalty.

The very same system of the Pharoahs, the Caesars, the Emperorers. A Royal system bolstered and promoted/supported by a priesthood.

As stated in the Divine Right of Kings post under the "Atheist group vs a preschool prayer" here in the Religion and Spirituality section..this is the system under which we find men living through out the world and for most of recorded history. This system of feudalism and divine right of kings where a few had a little and the rest had almost nothing but took most of the risk out of life for the few. People were not able to reap the fruits of their labors...but most people lived at a basic substance level or lower...through most of recorded history.

And today under men of logic , reason, Enlightenment...wisdom...we are returning to this same system of feudalism and royalty without the Bible..under the religion of men....which is nothing but a return to Feudalism.



There were, however, always in history and since the Cross, a people who did not live under that control system and wanted to be left alone.
They did not adhere to Rome nor Constantnople in their Beliefs. It was these Believers for whom Rome went on to persecute in the Inquisition. Whom Rome tried to exterminate.

Many churches today are attempting to facillitate a return back to this old Feudal system by not teaching the Whole Council of God. They teach only the feel good type system and leaving out important doctrine and Beliefs. It is in this portion of the Gospel ..the Word..in which the Salt is to be found..not only the Sugar as most churches are want to teach. For we are the Salt of the earth ..not the sugar.

When you teach only sugar..it is easy to seduce the flocks into feudal royal doctrine and beliefs. To mislead the flocks. And many ministers are at fault in this.



Also most churches in this nation are filed as 501c tax exempt corporations with the state. This is not separation of church and state. IF the churches get out of line and teach/preach what is not liked or authorized by the government they can be audited and their tax exempt status removed...or fined. This is a lie and deception by both government and the churches. For they are in bed together here.
Exactly as they were in the olde feudal times....to control the people.

This 501c corporate status is not separation of church and state..both on the part of government and on the part of the churches.

Churches should be tax immune..not tax exempt. Churches should never have a tax number or account number granted by the state.

In this manner, without a tax number, Churches can teach and preach the Whole Council of God and are not controlled and regulated by the whims of the state.
For corporate tax status means that one has a tax number..a control number as it is sometimes called today ...and this means that one is a corporation created and granted by state privilege...not by God given Right. A significant difference for sure. IF one has the corporate number..one must cede and give into ever changing state regulations and controls. This is seldom explained to people.
This is what a drivers license is...a corporate number granted by the state to operate by privilege in that jurisdictation ...driving. Not by right but by privilege.

Your religion and religious beliefs is not a privilege granted by the state nor controlled by the state. The founders never intended this. Understand now?? What is even worse to me is that your ministers should not be leaving you ignorant of this truth and most of them in fact do exactly this. I have only met a handful of ministers who will teach this to their flocks and this is in churches who do not have 501c tax numbers.

This is a knowledge and understanding never taught to people in public schools nor in the churches. Here once again ..the state is at fault for preying on the ignorance of the people and so too are the Churches and ministers. They are both controlling you in a lie.

Neither the state nor the churches are willing to teach the people the Whole Council of God...for the state does not want any limits on their power and the churches are in bed with the state..just as in olden times.


As to Predestination...my knowledge and understanding of this word is that we have Pre...meaning before..and Destination....where we are going to wind up..in the end..the destination. This is determined by God..not by us. We have no input into this...
For the Word states..."Whom He justified..He Glorified to become conformed to the image of His Son. Those He Glorified those He called.
Meaning those he chose. Chosen people do not choose..they are chosen. He does the choosing and makes us as he Chooses.

There is free will in obeying or not obeying His Word...but in the destination..no there is not.

For remember..both David and Moses were murderers and God did not break Faith with them. They were punnished severely for their tresspass..but God did not break Faith with them.


Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom


A post script here for you Dragoness..

I do not celebrate birthdays..nor holidays. No reason to put one day ahead of another.

My understanding of the Word is that these things are days of self glorification and all Glory is to Him not to me.
I see no such instruction to celebrate a birthday for the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were already doing these things and the Children of Israel were not to be like the nations surrounding them nor take on their customs, gods , or practices.

For we are not to follow birthdays...For the Significance of the cross is that he Died for us , was raised and resurrected to Glory...for us. His significance was His death for He died for His people....not His birthday. So many today get this totally backwards.
I seriously doubt He would be honored by a sale as the local department store around His birthday nor any other birthday...as is the custom and tradition of men.

I am not Jehovas Withess. I just figured this out by reading the Word..and being under good instruction of Elders who teach and preach the Chole council of God.
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Postby Dragoness » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:06 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:My understanding of the Word is that these things are days of self glorification and all Glory is to Him not to me.


Actually, that was the better explanation told to me by someone else, who's son became a Jehovah Witness.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:21 am

Dragoness wrote:
orangetom1999 wrote:

Actually, that was the better explanation told to me by someone else, who's son became a Jehovah Witness.



No problem Dragoness...there a number of groups of Believers out here who do not celebrate christmas. They are just not promoted in the MSM or in public education due to the necessity to merchandize people...verses get them to think for themselves. Hence most never hear of these other groups who do not observe one day above another or partake in man made holidays. Jehovahs Witness are one of the larger known groups.
I am out of the Olde Baptists.

Thanks for your posts,
Orangetom
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:57 am

orangetom1999 wrote:Jehovahs Witness are one of the larger known groups.
I am out of the Olde Baptists.


Jehovah's witnesses many times identify themselves as something else, it is very common. Not saying you just did, but I remember asking you one time if you were a JW. One old neighbor of ours, identified herself as "basically I'm Jewish" when her son saw our Christmas tree, and said "Look Mommy, a demon cross". They are a very clannish kind of thinking, where all outsiders are out of their lifestyle, which is a common thread among many staunch or fundamentalist religions. That also includes blood family, who are not conforming, which is very common.

Boils down to a lot of cult brainwashing, and a form of religious oppression, control.
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Postby dra600n » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:20 pm

at1with0 wrote:
greeney2 wrote:My question was in response to Frostedmans statement.


Nothing is contradictory in his statement "How we get there is up to us."


There is contradictory in his statement. It's a paradox. You can't have free will with predestination. Predestination would give the illusion of free will, but it's not free will if it's already chosen for you.
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:43 pm

Do you think God or reality cares what little mind games we play, such as reasoning from a limited standpoint? Perhaps reality doesn't "operate" on the usual binary logic and perhaps there needs to be at least one truth value besides true and false.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby dra600n » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:54 pm

That's under the assumption there is a God, or that we are living in a reality and not simulation.
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:08 pm

Not to mention the assumption that the unicorn in my basement is a fiction.
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