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The War on Terrorism & Homeland Security

So How's It Going, The "War On Terror"?

Discuss the War on Terrorism, Homeland Security, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea and other global terrorist concerns.

Postby Nigfis » Thu May 16, 2013 5:08 pm

blackvault wrote:It took you more than six months to cook up a response, and you are trying to say "I told you so!" ?? Or, at least, I think you are. Your quoting, copy and pasting, then responding inside the quotes, is kind of confusing.

And there's you straight in with an attack on............... my ability to use the embedded quote code correctly.
Weak that John, and we know it. Internet bullying starts right there.

Not sure if this is worth the time to even respond.

You didn't. What's to argue? America's position is clear. There have never been so many wars since the US became the world power it is today.
You do realise who the people the US is now supporting in Syria are, yes? The 'Rebels'?.... Here's a hint.... Al Queda!
Yup.
Your tax dollars being given away freely in Syria, to Al Queda.
I wonder how you feel about that John. Care to share?


Welcome back... I think you'll find some newer, more appropriate threads you can spread your American hate speech?

That's the rudest, most bad-mannered welcome I think I've had to date. Standards are what you make them.
However. I'll be good-natured enough to ignore the obvious and rather vicious personal attack John because I have no idea what strains you might be under, and thank you for your welcome.
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Postby blackvault » Fri May 17, 2013 7:59 am

Oh come on Nigfis, you can do better at trying to make me look bad. How many times have you publicly and privately chastised and attacked me? How many times have you spewed your anti-America rants and raves directed towards me, my home, and others here? I am glad now, so many months later, you can "be the better man" and try and say my bully tactics are so disheartening to you, and tarnish my site. Actually, if you'd like to sling mud, your bullying, your tactics, and your posts got you banned a couple times. It was ME (that same big bad bully) who allowed the ban to be lifted per your request. So, you can try and make me look bad all you want, but the fact remains - I welcome all posts and posters here. But hate rhetoric deserves a response cut from the same cloth. If that's such a detriment to you now - I am sorry.

Lastly on that note, I wasn't making fun, or bullying, your way of posting and using the quotes. If you re-read it - I said it was confusing (that's honesty, not bullying).

And, it's too bad you have so many assumptions about me, and what I believe. When you post incorrect and downright FALSE "facts" I respond like I did 6+ months ago. When you say something like:

You do realise who the people the US is now supporting in Syria are, yes? The 'Rebels'?.... Here's a hint.... Al Queda!


I don't disagree. You're right. And it's unfortunate Obama is doing such a thing for our country, and it is a disgrace. I posted this myself on my Facebook page weeks ago. When something is actually factual, regardless of it being damning to our country's image, I post it and report it. My site and my posts are evidence of such. I just don't take to HATE speech (which I know you have to agree with deep down is what you post half the time) So - we now agree on something - now what? :D

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Note the post date
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We can keep it civil - the 17 years of running this site, I have proven that. But, if you'd like me to dig up the previous public posts, and private messages, to show WHY I responded with such aggression after your multiple bans, let me know. I know you won't agree with me, but I am sure others (who you are trying to convince I am such a big bad bully) would.
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Postby Nigfis » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:38 am

Here's a little more 'anti-american' propaganda from little old me. :)


This, from http://www.juancole.com/
I remember quoting this bloke way back when America's war-crimes were mostly concentrated in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Leaving aside for the moment, America's multi-$billion hand in Israel's attempts at genocide, apartheid, and aggressive land-theft.) Tom even had the nerve to question his qualifications to speak about things 'Persian'. Fact is, he's a very clever man who tells the truth, whatever it happens to be.




Top Ten American Steps toward a Police State

Posted on 06/23/2013 by Juan Cole
The police state, a term first coined in the mid-19th century in German (Polizeistadt), is characterized by a standing political police, by intense domestic surveillance and by restrictions on the movements of citizens. Police states are on a spectrum, and unfortunately in the past decade the Unite States has moved toward police-stateness in small but key ways. Here are the signs:

1. The United States National Security Administration recently requisitioned all Verizon phone records in the US for a period of 3 months. Your telephone records (who you called and for how long) say a great deal about you. This is a form of mass surveillance.

2. The US has assigned 250 NSA agents to sift through a massive further British database of US telecommunications and email, derived from attaching packet analyzers to transatlantic fiber optic cables.

3. The Federal government claims the right to examine the contents of the laptops of US citizens whenever the enter the United States, in contravention of the Fourth Amendment. Some 60 million Americans travel abroad annually.

4. The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Those in prison have grown from 220 per 100,000 population to over 700 per 100,000 population since 1980. The US holds over two million inmates, and has 6 million people at any one time under carceral supervision– more than were in Stalin’s Gulag. State spending on prisons has risen at 6 times the rate of spending on higher education.

5. Some 6 million persons convicted of felonies have been disenfranchised and cannot vote. Most are not in prison. Because of the ‘war on drugs,’ many of these persons are not actually guilty of serious crimes. The practice hits the poor and minorities. Some 7 percent of African-Americans is ineligible to vote, but less than 2 percent of whites is.

6. Police can take DNA samples of all arrestees, whether they are proven guilty or not. Even Justice Scalia believes the ruling opens the door for DNA sample collection for all arrests. Some 13 million Americans are arrested annually, 1.6 million on drugs charges and half of those on marijuana charges.

7. American police are becoming militarized, with SWAT teams proliferating, and use of drones, GPS tracking devices, and military equipment, as well as participation of National Guards in the ‘war on drugs.’

8. Legislators are increasingly attempting to criminalize public protest, as with a current bill that would make it a crime knowingly to ‘trespass’ in security zones where persons are found who are under secret service protection. Authorities have sometimes also attempted to restrict public protesters to “protest zones”, thus keeping them out of the view of news cameras.

9. The USA PATRIOT Act institutes gag orders that are a violation of the 1st Amendment,forbidding persons and companies from revealing that the government has secretly asked for surveillance records.

10. The same act allows government agencies (including the Pentagon) to issue “National Security Letters” without any warrant, making broad and unspecific demands for records on large numbers of persons.






This ^^^^^ I have been warning about for years. Stupid people with their "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", sheep-like mentality by which some of your most precious 'freedoms' have been done away with. They are not 'going', they are gone, and you won't see personal privacy again unless you revolt and change the way things are.
Everything you see is staged John. America makes wars to feed the military/industrial machine to help keep your dollar afloat. America's position is clear. The US will do anything, without limits, to keep its greed-based economy on track.
One sad fact is that there have never been so many wars in the world since the US became the world power it is today.
That's the message I've been trying to get across for years, all of it provable, only for you and your 'fans' to call me anti-american or a 'terrorist supporter', whatever that is.
I tell only the truth as I believe it to be. That's what you don't like. If we're being honest with each other here. You can't stand a 'foreigner' telling you, an American, that your country's foreign policies only creates more enemies, and is designed to do so, to keep America as the only super-power on Earth.

Now though, those in charge of however many agencies have been created since 9-11, have turned their vast resources inward and are directing them at you, the people.
It's true isn't it John. Even bigger than we realised. The US is storing, almost quite literally, everything. Every electronic device that can record pictures, video or sound. Every laptop cam and audio feed. Every mobile cell phone with gps. They are storing it ALL. Your phone calls, your pictures, whether or not you have deleted them from your device doesn't matter, they are still sitting on a government database somewhere.....

So now what? Declare the war on terror over and have an internal, electronic, witch-hunt. The like of which hasn't been seen since...... Oh yeah. Since then!
Don't you feel any kind of a vague familiarity reading the following?

IBM and the Holocaust

In the upside-down world of the Holocaust, dignified professionals were Hitler's advance troops. Police officials disregarded their duty in favor of protecting villains and persecuting victims. Lawyers perverted concepts of justice to create anti-Jewish laws. Doctors defiled the art of medicine to perpetrate ghastly experiments and even choose who was healthy enough to be worked to death-and who could be cost-effectively sent to the gas chamber. Scientists and engineers debased their higher calling to devise the instruments and rationales of destruction. And statisticians used their little known but powerful discipline to identify the victims, project and rationalize the benefits of their destruction, organize their persecution, and even audit the efficiency of genocide. Enter IBM and its overseas subsidiaries.

Solipsistic and dazzled by its own swirling universe of technical possibilities, IBM was self-gripped by a special amoral corporate mantra: if it can be done, it should be done. To the blind technocrat, the means were more important than the ends. The destruction of the Jewish people became even less important because the invigorating nature of IBM's technical achievement was only heightened by the fantastical profits to be made at a time when bread lines stretched across the world.


So. What's it going to take, realistically, to undo what's been done John? Will you stand and fight ? I wonder who here will stand their ground, and who'll go under with a whimper, or worse, a prayer, on their lips?
Do you own a gun John? Greeney? Will you hand them over when you are told to? Anyone?
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:09 am

If the USA is the bad guy, why do you think one of your own soldiers was beheaded in broad daylight by a terrorist with a machete? Seems like you have your own war on terror to deal with.
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Postby Nigfis » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:15 pm

Off Topic
Greeney: If the USA is the bad guy, why do you think one of your own soldiers was beheaded in broad daylight by a terrorist with a machete? Seems like you have your own war on terror to deal with.


But what does that have to do with the previous post, or any post for that matter? Still not 'getting it' Greeney?

How does living in a police state, in the 'Land of the Free' feel to you?
This is, after all, something you are allowing your government to do, ostensibly to keep you safe from those that seek revenge against you for the actions you allow your government to take against them.

10 reasons the U.S. is no longer the land of the free By Jonathan Turley,January 13, 2012


Every year, the State Department issues reports on individual rights in other countries, monitoring the passage of restrictive laws and regulations around the world. Iran, for example, has been criticized for denying fair public trials and limiting privacy, while Russia has been taken to task for undermining due process. Other countries have been condemned for the use of secret evidence and torture.

Even as we pass judgment on countries we consider unfree, Americans remain confident that any definition of a free nation must include their own — the land of free. Yet, the laws and practices of the land should shake that confidence. In the decade since Sept. 11, 2001, this country has comprehensively reduced civil liberties in the name of an expanded security state. The most recent example of this was the National Defense Authorization Act, signed Dec. 31, which allows for the indefinite detention of citizens. At what point does the reduction of individual rights in our country change how we define ourselves?

While each new national security power Washington has embraced was controversial when enacted, they are often discussed in isolation. But they don’t operate in isolation. They form a mosaic of powers under which our country could be considered, at least in part, authoritarian. Americans often proclaim our nation as a symbol of freedom to the world while dismissing nations such as Cuba and China as categorically unfree. Yet, objectively, we may be only half right. Those countries do lack basic individual rights such as due process, placing them outside any reasonable definition of “free,” but the United States now has much more in common with such regimes than anyone may like to admit.

These countries also have constitutions that purport to guarantee freedoms and rights. But their governments have broad discretion in denying those rights and few real avenues for challenges by citizens — precisely the problem with the new laws in this country.

The list of powers acquired by the U.S. government since 9/11 puts us in rather troubling company.

Assassination of U.S. citizens

President Obama has claimed, as President George W. Bush did before him, the right to order the killing of any citizen considered a terrorist or an abettor of terrorism. Last year, he approved the killing of U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaqi and another citizen under this claimed inherent authority. Last month, administration officials affirmed that power, stating that the president can order the assassination of any citizen whom he considers allied with terrorists. (Nations such as Nigeria, Iran and Syria have been routinely criticized for extrajudicial killings of enemies of the state.)

Indefinite detention

Under the law signed last month, terrorism suspects are to be held by the military; the president also has the authority to indefinitely detain citizens accused of terrorism. While the administration claims that this provision only codified existing law, experts widely contest this view, and the administration has opposed efforts to challenge such authority in federal courts. The government continues to claim the right to strip citizens of legal protections based on its sole discretion. (China recently codified a more limited detention law for its citizens, while countries such as Cambodia have been singled out by the United States for “prolonged detention.”)

Arbitrary justice

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections. Bush claimed this authority in 2001, and Obama has continued the practice. (Egypt and China have been denounced for maintaining separate military justice systems for selected defendants, including civilians.)

While each new national security power Washington has embraced was controversial when enacted, they are often discussed in isolation. But they don’t operate in isolation. They form a mosaic of powers under which our country could be considered, at least in part, authoritarian. Americans often proclaim our nation as a symbol of freedom to the world while dismissing nations such as Cuba and China as categorically unfree. Yet, objectively, we may be only half right. Those countries do lack basic individual rights such as due process, placing them outside any reasonable definition of “free,” but the United States now has much more in common with such regimes than anyone may like to admit.

These countries also have constitutions that purport to guarantee freedoms and rights. But their governments have broad discretion in denying those rights and few real avenues for challenges by citizens — precisely the problem with the new laws in this country.

The list of powers acquired by the U.S. government since 9/11 puts us in rather troubling company.

Assassination of U.S. citizens

President Obama has claimed, as President George W. Bush did before him, the right to order the killing of any citizen considered a terrorist or an abettor of terrorism. Last year, he approved the killing of U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaqi and another citizen under this claimed inherent authority. Last month, administration officials affirmed that power, stating that the president can order the assassination of any citizen whom he considers allied with terrorists. (Nations such as Nigeria, Iran and Syria have been routinely criticized for extrajudicial killings of enemies of the state.)

Indefinite detention

Under the law signed last month, terrorism suspects are to be held by the military; the president also has the authority to indefinitely detain citizens accused of terrorism. While the administration claims that this provision only codified existing law, experts widely contest this view, and the administration has opposed efforts to challenge such authority in federal courts. The government continues to claim the right to strip citizens of legal protections based on its sole discretion. (China recently codified a more limited detention law for its citizens, while countries such as Cambodia have been singled out by the United States for “prolonged detention.”)

Arbitrary justice

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections. Bush claimed this authority in 2001, and Obama has continued the practice. (Egypt and China have been denounced for maintaining separate military justice systems for selected defendants, including civilians.)

The government now routinely uses secret evidence to detain individuals and employs secret evidence in federal and military courts. It also forces the dismissal of cases against the United States by simply filing declarations that the cases would make the government reveal classified information that would harm national security — a claim made in a variety of privacy lawsuits and largely accepted by federal judges without question. Even legal opinions, cited as the basis for the government’s actions under the Bush and Obama administrations, have been classified. This allows the government to claim secret legal arguments to support secret proceedings using secret evidence. In addition, some cases never make it to court at all. The federal courts routinely deny constitutional challenges to policies and programs under a narrow definition of standing to bring a case.

War crimes

The world clamored for prosecutions of those responsible for waterboarding terrorism suspects during the Bush administration, but the Obama administration said in 2009 that it would not allow CIA employees to be investigated or prosecuted for such actions. This gutted not just treaty obligations but the Nuremberg principles of international law. When courts in countries such as Spain moved to investigate Bush officials for war crimes, the Obama administration reportedly urged foreign officials not to allow such cases to proceed, despite the fact that the United States has long claimed the same authority with regard to alleged war criminals in other countries. (Various nations have resisted investigations of officials accused of war crimes and torture. Some, such as Serbia and Chile, eventually relented to comply with international law; countries that have denied independent investigations include Iran, Syria and China.)

Secret court

The government has increased its use of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has expanded its secret warrants to include individuals deemed to be aiding or abetting hostile foreign governments or organizations. In 2011, Obama renewed these powers, including allowing secret searches of individuals who are not part of an identifiable terrorist group. The administration has asserted the right to ignore congressional limits on such surveillance. (Pakistan places national security surveillance under the unchecked powers of the military or intelligence services.)

Immunity from judicial review

Like the Bush administration, the Obama administration has successfully pushed for immunity for companies that assist in warrantless surveillance of citizens, blocking the ability of citizens to challenge the violation of privacy. (Similarly, China has maintained sweeping immunity claims both inside and outside the country and routinely blocks lawsuits against private companies.)

Continual monitoring of citizens

The Obama administration has successfully defended its claim that it can use GPS devices to monitor every move of targeted citizens without securing any court order or review. (Saudi Arabia has installed massive public surveillance systems, while Cuba is notorious for active monitoring of selected citizens.)

Extraordinary renditions

The government now has the ability to transfer both citizens and noncitizens to another country under a system known as extraordinary rendition, which has been denounced as using other countries, such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan, to torture suspects. The Obama administration says it is not continuing the abuses of this practice under Bush, but it insists on the unfettered right to order such transfers — including the possible transfer of U.S. citizens.

These new laws have come with an infusion of money into an expanded security system on the state and federal levels, including more public surveillance cameras, tens of thousands of security personnel and a massive expansion of a terrorist-chasing bureaucracy.

Some politicians shrug and say these increased powers are merely a response to the times we live in. Thus, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) could declare in an interview last spring without objection that “free speech is a great idea, but we’re in a war.” Of course, terrorism will never “surrender” and end this particular “war.”

Other politicians rationalize that, while such powers may exist, it really comes down to how they are used. This is a common response by liberals who cannot bring themselves to denounce Obama as they did Bush. Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), for instance, has insisted that Congress is not making any decision on indefinite detention: “That is a decision which we leave where it belongs — in the executive branch.”

And in a signing statement with the defense authorization bill, Obama said he does not intend to use the latest power to indefinitely imprison citizens. Yet, he still accepted the power as a sort of regretful autocrat.

An authoritarian nation is defined not just by the use of authoritarian powers, but by the ability to use them. If a president can take away your freedom or your life on his own authority, all rights become little more than a discretionary grant subject to executive will.

The framers lived under autocratic rule and understood this danger better than we do. James Madison famously warned that we needed a system that did not depend on the good intentions or motivations of our rulers: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

Benjamin Franklin was more direct. In 1787, a Mrs. Powel confronted Franklin after the signing of the Constitution and asked, “Well, Doctor, what have we got — a republic or a monarchy?” His response was a bit chilling: “A republic, Madam, if you can keep it.”

Since 9/11, we have created the very government the framers feared: a government with sweeping and largely unchecked powers resting on the hope that they will be used wisely.

The indefinite-detention provision in the defense authorization bill seemed to many civil libertarians like a betrayal by Obama. While the president had promised to veto the law over that provision, Levin, a sponsor of the bill, disclosed on the Senate floor that it was in fact the White House that approved the removal of any exception for citizens from indefinite detention.

Dishonesty from politicians is nothing new for Americans. The real question is whether we are lying to ourselves when we call this country the land of the free.


Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University.
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:38 pm

So How's It Going, The "War On Terror"? this is the subject of the thread.
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Postby Nesaie » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:14 am

War on terrorism??? What a joke!

It's as good as the "war on cancer, the war on drugs, etc..." JOKE

Ugh..

I was born in Seattle, I belong to WASHINGTON STATE. ;) These flagwaving (made in China) flags "americans" anger me.

JOKE...laughter....
Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky
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Postby blackvault » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:11 am

Doesn't Washington State belong to the United States?? :) No state flag can be flown above the Stars and Stripes for a reason. That isn't made in china... That's an American standard.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:25 am

The United States Government has been hijacked and taken over from the inside by the money powers for over a hundred years now.

THis became obvious with the Boxer Rebellion and the Spanish American War...where American Troops began to venture outside the Western Hemisphere contrary to the wording of the Monroe Doctrine. We suddenly found ourselves not only in the Phillipines but also in China fighting on behalf of the Crown interests. This was done back then without the knowledge of the American Public and without the knowledge of most of the Congress. It is still today being done without the knowledge of most of the American public and I believe also without the knowledge of most of the Congress.

Since that time our Government has been under the control of international merchants and particularly the Crown Merchants out of London. We now fight their wars for them and for their profits. Not the British Government but the Crown Merchants.

China and INdia both were Crown Colonies..just like Bermuda and the Bahamas...they are owned run and regulated by the Crown Merchants and these merchants can make or break any law which is good for the Crowns profits.


Some of us know this about these wars becauses the standard dictum of these wars is that "The Victors Get the Spoils." This is not the case where America is concerned. When the wars are over ...American gets no new territories..no new spoils. This means we have fought someone else's war for them and their profits. The true political/economic arrangement is not what appears on the surface.
We constantly over and over expend a huge block of men and materials...monies and Risks..but someone else gets the "Lions Share."

WW1 and WW2 both had these very results. Since WW2...we have been involved in one planned and engineered loss after another in order to secure resources and land...and keep it in storage and off the marketplace....and at the same time keep competitors out.

Vietnam was a planned engineered loss..so too is Iraq and eventually you can see the same thing happening in Afghanistan.

The same thing is happening all across the top of Africa and into the middle east to keep the resources off the marketplace and competitors out. WE are supporting Al Queda groups because they are the replacement for the Communists. Under the Communists...it was gauranteed that the resources would remain off the marketplace and the country backwards and in storage..and the Communists were the perfect tool to keep competitors out.

For the Crown has also been running the Communists under the "Balance of Power" doctrine and dogma...and with Americas help.

Now today as a change agent ...the radical muslims are being used and misused to do the same thing the Communists used to do ..keep a nations resources off the marketplace ..and competitors out. It is the same olde strategy with new players...or put another way..."Business as Usual."

Once you understand the old military doctrine of "The Victors get the Spoils" you can see that the opposite is happening on the surface...or we were never the victors..but the losers.


The proof that this olde scam is still going on was back before Gulf War 1 when Maggie Thatcher came over here to the Aspen Institute to have a meeting with the then President elder George Herbert Walker Bush. The elder Bush was not going to do anything about the take over of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein and his forces..until Maggie Thatcher came over to this meeting.

THe elder Bush went in a dove and came out a hawk...a total reversal. Maggie Thatcher came over to give the President his marching orders from her bosses ..in the Crown...or Crown Merchants who had developed Both Iraq and Kuwait and its oil for their profits.
Most of Mid East oil was developed by the Crown Merchants for their profits. America and Americas oil industry is a relative new comer to this arena...mostly since WW2. The Crown operated in this arena since after WW1.

NOnetheless...the Elder Bush carried out the wishes of the Crown Merchants operating behind their puppet...Maggie Thatcher. Every PM in England has done the bidding of the Crown and so too has the british army and Navy. And when these militarys could not handle it as in WW1...other nations were called in to do the bidding of the Crown for the Crown's profits.

The Crown is the one square mile area in down town London..where the Lord Mayor is he symbolic head. When the Queen of England comes to Olde London on official business she dismounts and bows before the Lord Mayor of London....her Soverign.

This is the set up for which most people do not even know exists. New players come and go in this system..but it remains the same..mostly unseen and unknown by most outsiders ..and definitely not taught to students in public schools nor on the History Channel on the boob tube.
We are not to know of this "Special Setup" of the American Government and their bosses ...the Crown.

Many powerful and influential Americans are boot lackeys of the Crown and steer American policy in favor of the Crown and their investments and interests.


So when I see people attempting to browbeat America and Americans...I know that they are textbook of public education...non standards.

The English system has gone so far down the tubes of this corrupt Crown system over their government they have bought into the Socialist/Communist rhetoric of the blame game while avoiding this hidden concealed history.

America itself is slated and scheduled to follow this very template of the Crown and follow English non standards in everything.
England today is a very different nation from 100/150 years ago..in every arena. For the Crown Merchants are not loyal to a nation..but only loyal to their profits. And Ameican is slated to follow this corrupted depraved model in everything.
Agenda 21 is a Crown program...So too are the Georga Guidestones...an international program..a UN Program....going back to the Brenton Woods agreements.

Including shedding over and over ..our Ameican and finest blood for Crown/International Profits.

BeWarned,
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Postby greeney2 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:00 pm

Nesaie wrote:War on terrorism??? What a joke!

It's as good as the "war on cancer, the war on drugs, etc..." JOKE

Ugh..

I was born in Seattle, I belong to WASHINGTON STATE. ;) These flagwaving (made in China) flags "americans" anger me.

JOKE...laughter....


How about the war on drunk driving Nasaie? Doesn't seem to slow down any town drunks Nasaie, but at least they try :lol:

Funny how you curse Boeing, and hate the biggest provider of American jobs in your area.
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