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simple question on gun control

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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:28 pm

Convicted felons already can not process, buy, or even live in a house someone else has guns. They also can not have many other things they would consider weapons. California has the strictest gun buying checks I believe. Why should my gun rights be taken away because of convicted felons, gangs, and irresponsible people?
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Postby at1with0 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:23 pm

capricorn wrote:
at1with0 wrote:But you agree that guns should only be purchasable by certain people, right?

Yes, those who are in jail shouldn't be able to purchase guns.

Just prisoners then? You'd let every other person (I hafta assume American) buy guns?
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Postby capricorn » Wed May 15, 2013 6:29 am

It is not an issue of "letting" people have guns. Whether there are laws created to prevent people from having guns; it matters not. The reality is, guns exist. They cannot be un-invented. As long as metal working and welding technology exist, those that wish to have guns will have them. In addition, 3D printing will (and has) made the acquisition of a firearm even more easily accessible.

Banning or restricting the availability of Guns for the public will only restrict them for law abiding citizens. In addition, it will shift the balance of power to criminals as well as the military and defense arms of the gov't.

Even with guns currently legal, studies conducted by the Department of Justice, and reported by Pew Research, have shown that the majority of guns used in crime (40%) were illegally obtained:
Forbes.com wrote:"where did the [criminals] who did the shooting get most of their guns? Were those gun show “loopholes” responsible? Nope. According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source."
Read more: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... s-plummet/


So to answer your question of:
at1with0 wrote: You'd let every other person (I hafta assume American) buy guns?

No, I would not simply 'let' them. It isn't even a matter of letting them. Those that wish to have guns will let themselves have them.

My question is this: For argument sake; suppose that tomorrow a bill to ban all guns passed. How do you propose we enforce that ban? Would you enforce it in a similar fashion to the War on Drugs? Perhaps call it the War on Guns?
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Postby at1with0 » Wed May 15, 2013 7:46 am

capricorn wrote:No, I would not simply 'let' them. It isn't even a matter of letting them. Those that wish to have guns will let themselves have them.


But this ignores the question should all those who wish to have guns be allowed to have them? You said people in jail should be banned from buying guns.

My question is this: For argument sake; suppose that tomorrow a bill to ban all guns passed. How do you propose we enforce that ban? Would you enforce it in a similar fashion to the War on Drugs? Perhaps call it the War on Guns?


How do we enforce DUI's? Alcohol exists. It cannot be uninvented...
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Postby greeney2 » Wed May 15, 2013 10:11 am

What good is a solution that only affects the honest responsible gun owners, and will never affect the criminals and felons, who do not play by the rules. DUI's are a good example, that we tighten up the limit, suspend drivers, revoke their licence, and they still drive without it, drunk as a skunk. How many times as someone died as a result of DUI under a suspended licence? Yet they have the laws on the books now, just like guns if they enforce them.

Then we have the situations that slip through the cracks, like Adam Lanza, and a number of young shooters who have no criminal records, and are legally squeaky clean, but apparently mental cases. So what guidelines should eliminate mental health issues from buying a gun, or how do you regulate present gun owners who develop mental issues later in life. What is a serious issue and what is a minor issue? Is anyone in any form of counseling a risk? Where do you draw the line, and how do you regulate mental health and still have it a patient/doctor confidentiality?

Bottom line is there is no easy answer, so you seem to advocate totally taking away guns? It would be impossible for starters an the bad guys would be the only ones with guns in the end. Same logic as making sober driving illegal and making a new law you must be drunk to drive so everyone is equal.
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Postby at1with0 » Wed May 15, 2013 10:35 am

greeney2 wrote:What good is a solution that only affects the honest responsible gun owners, and will never affect the criminals and felons, who do not play by the rules. DUI's are a good example, that we tighten up the limit, suspend drivers, revoke their licence, and they still drive without it, drunk as a skunk. How many times as someone died as a result of DUI under a suspended licence? Yet they have the laws on the books now, just like guns if they enforce them.


Sounds like you're advocating anarchy or lawlessness of some kind or at least pointing to the uselessness of law.

Bottom line is there is no easy answer, so you seem to advocate totally taking away guns? It would be impossible for starters an the bad guys would be the only ones with guns in the end. Same logic as making sober driving illegal and making a new law you must be drunk to drive so everyone is equal.


Are you saying that it should be legal to drive drunk? Then should it be legal to carry a gun? I am not advocating taking away guns I am advocating an exploration of the ideas. Here's a question from left field: if mankind invents time travel within the next million years would I advocate going back in time to when guns were invented...and preventing them from being invented? I think I would advocate the taking away of guns in that case. But hopefully we won't have to wait that long for people to stop misusing guns.
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Postby greeney2 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:19 am

You keep talking about anarchy, but how to you equate me talking about the honest gun owners who are responsible, and follow the letter of the law? It is the bad guys of our world, like gang riddled neighborhoods who control their territory, and that is almost complete anarchy now if you live there. How close to you think we could be in total anarchy is the cops loose control, they take over, and you wish you still had that AK47, you are willing to give up so fast? The gangs and drug czars are armed to the hilt, God help us if they get total control like in Mexico.
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Postby capricorn » Wed May 15, 2013 11:31 am

at1with0 wrote:How do we enforce DUI's? Alcohol exists. It cannot be uninvented...

This is my point exactly. We don't ban Alcohol; we already tried that and it failed miserably. Instead we legalized it and allow each person their own personal decision to use it. Some abuse it and then are dealt accordingly via the criminal justice system (issue a DUI, DWI, etc..). But to put the alcohol argument apples to apples with guns; you are saying ban the alcohol outright? This is not wise just as history has proven.

at1with0 wrote:capricorn wrote:
No, I would not simply 'let' them. It isn't even a matter of letting them. Those that wish to have guns will let themselves have them.

But this ignores the question should all those who wish to have guns be allowed to have them? You said people in jail should be banned from buying guns.


I'll put it this way. I personally don't think it would be wise for people who have murdered innocent civilians to have guns, and I probably would even support that. However, I would in no way support a gun registry. Basically that would be criminalizing me for something another person did. Maybe they should bring back something like the scarlet letter. A big red letter 'A' on the face of murderers. Then we would all know not to sell them guns.
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Postby greeney2 » Wed May 15, 2013 12:47 pm

You want a fool proof answer of how to control gun use, you will not like the answer but it is simple. EVerybody gets chipped, and at anytime you can querry what chips are at a given GPS and a given time, meaning the time and scene of any crime. Crime is virtually solved.
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Postby blackvault » Wed May 15, 2013 4:33 pm

greeney2 wrote:You want a fool proof answer of how to control gun use, you will not like the answer but it is simple. EVerybody gets chipped, and at anytime you can querry what chips are at a given GPS and a given time, meaning the time and scene of any crime. Crime is virtually solved.


Would you support something like that?
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