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Postby at1with0 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:47 pm

capricorn wrote:In regards to guns, the benefit is allowing We The People to maintain the balance of power with government; as well as personal protection


Doing so is risky.
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Postby Wing-Zero » Mon May 13, 2013 8:17 pm

at1with0 wrote:
capricorn wrote:In regards to guns, the benefit is allowing We The People to maintain the balance of power with government; as well as personal protection


Doing so is risky.


Allowing people to speak freely on the internet is risky.
War is an extension of economics and diplomacy through other means.

Economics and diplomacy are methods of securing resources used by humans.

Securing resources is the one necessary behavior for all living things.

War = Life
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Postby at1with0 » Mon May 13, 2013 8:24 pm

Wing-Zero wrote:
at1with0 wrote:
capricorn wrote:In regards to guns, the benefit is allowing We The People to maintain the balance of power with government; as well as personal protection


Doing so is risky.


Allowing people to speak freely on the internet is risky.


Indeed.
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Postby capricorn » Tue May 14, 2013 7:05 am

Right to bear arms not being infringed

Pros:

  1. Insurance for a society's Freedom (see the second amendment to the constitution: "necessary to the security of a free state") http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution ... _amendment
  2. Protection from the rise of Tyrannical Government (ie. Balance of Power)
  3. Personal Protection from Criminals
  4. Discourages Criminal Activity. (Criminals less likely to commit crime if they suspect they may turn from predator to prey.)
  5. Prevents Hundreds of Millions of deaths due to Gov't tyranny (see Mao, Stalin, Hitler/ see Democide http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP1.HTM)
  6. More Guns = Less Crime (See crime rates of societies with more vs less guns: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... s-plummet/)
  7. Sport and Competition

Cons:

  1. Ease of access to guns for criminals
  2. Gun accidents
  3. 30,000 a year die from gun related incidents (see gun violence in the USA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... ted_States

Feel free to add to the list.
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Postby at1with0 » Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 pm

Well let's try not weighing out pros and cons, let's decide from reasoning about first principles. Tell me why should the random American be allowed to possess firearms?

One major issue would be the process of taking people's guns. Like converting to a new political system, the new political system might be better for most people but the transitioning to the new state is what becomes the major obstacle.
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Postby capricorn » Tue May 14, 2013 12:57 pm

at1with0 wrote:Well let's try not weighing out pros and cons, let's decide from reasoning about first principles. Tell me why should the random American be allowed to possess firearms?

For the reasons I have outlined above under "Pros"

at1with0 wrote: One major issue would be the process of taking people's guns. Like converting to a new political system, the new political system might be better for most people but the transitioning to the new state is what becomes the major obstacle.

I couldn't answer your question because I don't agree with your premise. What desirable political system would warrant the mandatory confiscation of guns? Humans innately have moral issues (and our fore fathers knew this) so I couldn't agree that the confiscation of guns would bring about any utopia. In fact, history tells us only the opposite has happened.

What do you do when a political system, which was meant to keep guns out of criminals arms, is eventually controlled by criminals? Will the criminals not make laws to place guns in their hand and not the peoples? Are not the laws being crafted by Senator Feinstien and Joe Biden meant to keep guns out of the peoples hands but at the same time exempt themselves??
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Postby at1with0 » Tue May 14, 2013 1:07 pm

But you agree that guns should only be purchasable by certain people, right?
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Postby greeney2 » Tue May 14, 2013 1:40 pm

How many people are killed by Drunk Drivers every year? what is your plan for that, to make it a foolproof society? Take away all the cars, or all the booze? And yet millions of millions of people regulate their alcohol intake and driving and never have a issue. Sounds like people who are responsible with guns. Key word is responsible, which we assume in a free society.

I have no protection from the irresponsible drunk running a red light when I go to the store for 5 minutes, but I can regulate my usage and be responsible myself. I do have protection for someone invading my home in the middle of the night, and use it responsibly. Why would you advocate taking that away, with no way of disarming the bad guys?

The issue is a society that has irresponsible folks of all kinds, and advocating making all the responsible people continue to pay for them.
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Postby at1with0 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:43 pm

greeney2 wrote:How many people are killed by Drunk Drivers every year? what is your plan for that, to make it a foolproof society? Take away all the cars, or all the booze? And yet millions of millions of people regulate their alcohol intake and driving and never have a issue. Sounds like people who are responsible with guns. Key word is responsible, which we assume in a free society.

I have no protection from the irresponsible drunk running a red light when I go to the store for 5 minutes, but I can regulate my usage and be responsible myself. I do have protection for someone invading my home in the middle of the night, and use it responsibly. Why would you advocate taking that away, with no way of disarming the bad guys?

The issue is a society that has irresponsible folks of all kinds, and advocating making all the responsible people continue to pay for them.


Perhaps the simplest solution to government is abolishing it and use an intelligent form of anarchy.
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Postby capricorn » Tue May 14, 2013 5:36 pm

at1with0 wrote:But you agree that guns should only be purchasable by certain people, right?

Yes, those who are in jail shouldn't be able to purchase guns.
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