The Black Vault

orangetom1999 wrote:Sorry Rath...but in spite of the Magna Carta....feudalism/royalty did not produce the prosperity and individuality or recognize private property in the manner which was to separate this country from the rest of the world.

And furthermore...it did not stop the excesses of royalty over the people and nations. Royalty also killed and got rid of royalty until real change began to take place with Oliver Cromwell.

Oliver Cromwell marked the first time in history that a ordinary people had ever executed a king.

This is significant because in history ..in spite of the Magna Carta...Royalty depended on a religious dogma of power called "Divine Right of Kings."

That a Monarch's power came from God...that their crowns were put on them by the leaders of the faith ...therefore the power came from God...absolute power.
Therefore there was no limit to with what a Monarch could do or get away...for their power was absolute...unlimited...from God. Who could question that??

This is not a knowledge taught today in public schools...nor in comic books.

It was Oliver Cromwell and his forces who put an end to "Divine Right of Kings" and absolute power when they put Charles 1st on the block in 1649 and took his head. And his blood did not run "Royal Blue,"

Since that time no monarch has ever declared themselves Divine Right.

But monarchs and other governments have still by stealth attempted slowly and in incriments to return back to "Absolute Power."

This is the very thing being attempted by our own government here in the states through socialism and getting rid of the Bible in every aspect of public life..and particularly in government. To separate the people from their religion and bring government back to "absolute Power" or "Divine Right of Kings."

If the people no longer know the Bible...That God is in Heaven...not on any seat in government..and also know little history ..it is easier to pull this off on them.

If the people know little history..they also will not know the nature of revolution and this too is covered in the Bible if you know where to look and how.

It was when divine right of kings was put to rest that progress in the western world was possible. For the Founders here also knew this history about the English Civil War some 100 years before the founding of this nation.

For this was the precident/example for a people to turn on their king if the king had broken the law. Oliver Cromwell had settled that issue. King John and the Magna Carta had not settled that issue.

I know this because today the English Civil war is mostly avoided in history next to the significance of it.

I live here in Virginia right down the road from Colonial Williimsburg and the Jamestown settlement of 1607. Lots of history of this nation took place not far from here.

In spite of the Magna Carta...it did not solve all the problems of England or any other nation. It did not speak to the ills of feudalism nor "divine right of kings."

In America this knowledge is termed Separation of Church and state. This is how the ills of Divine Right of Kings is addressed...by our founders. To separate church from State..not to separate the peoples religion from them in daily belief and practice...thereby giving government free reign.

It is for this reason..."Divine Right of Kings" that many are today speaking of this government as royalty/feudalism. A return back to absolute power in the hands of government and away from the principles of "Limited Government" which was the preferred system of the founders. Limited government meant people have more control or discretion over their private property. Royalty and feudalism meant the opposite.

But you have to know some history to understand this. The Bible is also history and also addresses private property...if one knows where to look..and how.

Little of this will ever be taught in public schools...particularly Oliver Cromwell and the English Civil war next to the significance of it to Americans.

Nor will it be taught in comic books.

Nor will it be taught to people with mostly a movie and television education.
As a matter of fact...Hollywood has become so disgusting and impotent/inert that they must nowdays make more and more movies based on comic book characters. Astonishing!!

And it is becoming quite clear that the trend line is for government and hollywood in bed together.. to have each others heads up each others backsides. Comic Books?? Who is financing public education in this nation.....Government!! Comic Books!!???

Is not government in this country and others ...using and misusing a tabloid like format..of preying on peoples fears, emotions, and insecurities...dividing them into opposing groups instead of uniting them??? And then offering more government as a solution.

Tabloid=comic book. Not difficult to see this for what it is.

Thanks,
Orangetom

All irrelevant gibberish.

orangetom1999 wrote:Sorry Rath...but in spite of the Magna Carta....feudalism/royalty did not produce the prosperity and individuality or recognize private property in the manner which was to separate this country from the rest of the world.

And furthermore...it did not stop the excesses of royalty over the people and nations. Royalty also killed and got rid of royalty until real change began to take place with Oliver Cromwell.

The Magna Carta was not meant to be an immediate fix.

it was a foundation document.

It was also the bases of the U.S Constitution along with many French influences, on the u.s constitution. such as the France constitution, the French colours of red white & blue. Oh & the French statue of liberty you all worship so much.

orangetom1999 wrote:Sorry Rath...but in spite of the Magna Carta....feudalism/royalty did not produce the prosperity and individuality or recognize private property in the manner which was to separate this country from the rest of the world.

No more or less so than the U.S bill of rights had in the usa ... it hardly gave equality & freedoms to American's. did it now.

The Bill of Rights work out for slavery, & woman's rights, ... & the rights of Native American's.

En Lugal,

My hope is that we can avoid the direction our country is headed, for our children and grandchildren.

Your hope and concerns for your generations are entirely reasonable and justified by record of history alone.
I agree and have the same concerns..not only for the reasons of offspring but my country. I do not put much stock in pure reason and intelligence here per se. It will take much more than that. Nonetheless...your concerns are quite correct.


I am going to proceed here and expound also on the nature of revolution..or the history of a people turning on their leadership.

The role of most governments from a standpoint of history is that they start out very conservative and decent in representing their people...but over time the crooks and those of what I call "Total Depravity" move into office...often under the guise of feigning concern for public issues..but are in fact setting up a fiefdom of their own or setting the stage for the feifdom of their handlers. They begin the process of looting and pillaging the nation. Also along with this seems to be the history and pattern of getting involved in foreign wars aplenty..for the continued purpose of looting for themselves or for whom ever the leadership are puppets.

Nonetheless...the technique seems to be back to "Absolute Power " again in order to extract more from the people to support these causes of which most of the public know nothing outside of patriotic rhetoric and speeches.

To support this puppet government...necessitates removing more and more property from the citizenry and to the government as a clearing house for the puppetmasters. Moneys, labor, properties are thusly transfered resulting over time in the impoverishment of the people not politically affluent.

The trick for government is to raise the cost to the citizenry such that it is cheaper ..less risky to give in to government than it is to fight or overthrow them.

It at anytime the citizenry determine that it is cheaper to fight against government than it is to give in to them...a revolution is going to take place.

What government must continually do is convince the people that they can extract from them the ultimate cost to the citizenry. That this ultimate cost to the people is a cost that they cannot afford to pay.

So ...What is the ultimate cost????


The Ultimate Cost in history ...is loss of the soul!!

That a government can not only take your physical life..but your after life as well.

This is why the Founders here ...knew that church and state had to be separated. To keep this age olde power source from out of the hands of government and men. To prevent a return to "Absolute Power" "Divine Right of Kings."


This was the power of the Pharoah's. the Czars, The Caesars, The Kaiser (derivation of Caesar), The Emperors..including the Asian Emperors...that they were God men or had a direct line to God. The Divine Right Kings. God with us.


Now today ...government and men of intellect..."Humanists" have worked very hard to take even religion out of the hands of the people and put more power in the hands of government by getting the people themselves to lose this history and knowledge. They can only accomplish this if they have in fact neutered even the ministry across this land. And they have done a nice job of this by mixing church and state through creating tax exempt corporations in the churches.
The Atheists are very correct in that churches should not have tax numbers or be corporations of the state..but not for the reasons the Atheists believe. Churches should not have tax numbers so that they can teach and preach the "Whole Council of God" and not be limited by government decree or face audit and loss of tax status.

If more people knew what "The Whole Council of God " vs "Divine Right of Kings" entailed..consisted of ...they would be highly upset at what passes for government today and keep a close watch on them. They would also be highly upset at what passes for ministry today....and they should be.

They would begin to see where government is moving in on the arena of God by how He instructed the people to live and not live..to do or not do..to separate from that which is not right or just according to Him.

At some point government would not be able to raise the cost sufficiently to get away with what they are currently attempting to do.

It is not difficult to see that somewhere in the next four years this government in ceding to international standards..will begin to cast the Constitution aside and default to world standards. To do this they will begin to single out Believers...they are already doing this. It will wax worse as we are forced to give up American Beliefs for International beliefs and non standards.

Nonetheless..this is the nature of revolution and how it breaks down among people who know the history.

Want to know why they want our guns...because at some point soon for the international plans they have for this country via their puppets in office...they are going to have to raise the cost to the people even higher. To extract more of the production from the people. More of the private property of the people and transfer it to government puppets operating for their overlords...their handlers.
I keep saying that someone out here wants to make us Englishmen or Continentals.

To you En Lugal and others...this is why your concerns about your children and grandchildren are quite correct.

Hope this helps some of you to understand what is not taught in schools or even in the media looking out for us and of course also not taught by most of the ministry.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Rath,

Thanks for your response.

All irrelevant gibberish.

Oh..quite correct here. I am not saying that the Magna Carta was not important in history...just that it is not the whole story. For some reason ..you..without clarification or expounding on the nature of history itself..seem to put the Magna Carta up as the creme de la creme. I dont think so.


While it has been some time since I read the Magna Carta...one of the sidelights which at first I found very humorous...was that the King decreed a standard for what was a tankard of ale across the kingdom.

I thought this quite funny considering the seriousness of the Charter being considered..but only later realized that a standard of commerce was in fact a necessity for the operation ...even a standard for a tankard of ale. Not being much of a drinker I at first found this quite funny...but only in retrospect of the bigger picture found it reasonable for effective commerce.

But nonetheless you did not use the whole of history ..only the Magna Carta.


What????!!!!

Oh & the French statue of liberty you all worship so much.

I dont worship the statue of liberty ..for I know it's origins...same with the Washington Monument. The Washington Monument is a Obelisk...Olde Baal's Lisk or male member. This is from Occult religion. So too with the statue of liberty. The French were and still are heavily into Occult religion. So too are our own leadership.

I can go to any capitol in this nation and others and just feel the Occult influences..in the architecture and also the number of souls bartered, traded, and sold, by the governments for power and control. Particularly in Paris, France. And I have been to numerous capitols around this globe.

Right here ..Richmond, Virginia has exactly that feel..dead..inert....soul less. London is the same way.

The French Tri colour...I have no use for it...particularly since I know what the French leadership did under the guise of Wise Men...intellectuals...men of reason and logic who came to power with the death of the King.

One in five Frenchmen went to the gallows..the guillotine. 20% of the people ..one in five. It did not solve their economic woes.
The same thing happened in Russia when the Soviets took over. SAme thing in China when the Communists took over. SAme thing in Cambodia recently in the Killing Fields.

One need not be smart to know that intellectuals can be some of the most dangerous people in the world when they get into government.
Even more so today when their conscience is by computer. Humanistic computer conscience.

This is why I keep bringing up the word and link to "Democide" where the author of the article declared that in the last 100 years there have been 262 million people killed by their own governments and not in war. This is in addition to warfare.
A status and knowledge carefully hidden and concealed from the general population in public education, the churches , and even in the news media looking out for us...fair and balanced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide


More people need to know this informations and teach themselves to think outside the box of what passes for intellectualism and knowledge today.

And while I am at it...why do you yourself not bring up these kinds of things and thinking..particularly about the French Revolution which is the template for the Internationale..which became the Communist Doctrine....through Karl Marx?? Das Kapital..and other works.

That Rath..is why I have little use for the French per se..and I am also very careful about the British as well.

While I have a great interest in English History and Oliver Cromwell..I have no desire to become under feudal reign nor become British or Continental...nor a citizen of the world.

England today is going rapidly in the dregs and so too will follow Australia as they attempt to take their place on the world stage. The costs to you down under is going to be very very high.
And our current whorish leadership is attempting by stealth to get your government to cover certain bases for them. Since our retreat from more and more of Asia...Austraulia has become more and more important.

I have been watching quietly places like Alice Springs which seems to be a staging or billeting place for people working at the Yank Pine Gap monitoring station. This seems to be a uplink/downlink location for satellite handling as well as space exploration.

As I've seen enough shooting ranges in my time I am asking myself why there is, just outside of Ilpapra, a 1000 yard shooting range as well as shorter ranges in a nation with such restrictive gun laws?? One can see a 1000 yd range, a 500 yd range, a 200 yd, and shorter ranges ...even a skeet range.
It is my envy..I wish we had such a fine range round here like that around here.




Well...continuing on..

orangetom1999 wrote:
Sorry Rath...but in spite of the Magna Carta....feudalism/royalty did not produce the prosperity and individuality or recognize private property in the manner which was to separate this country from the rest of the world.

No more or less so than the U.S bill of rights had in the usa ... it hardly gave equality & freedoms to American's. did it now.

The Bill of Rights work out for slavery, & woman's rights, ... & the rights of Native American's.

Wow Rath!!! I get it now...pardon me for not catching on the first time you tried this. How could I have been so dumb I did not catch it the first time you tried this type of "Guilt Politics." What was I thinking??

Guilt politics does not work on me. First off none of my family got here to this country before the 1950s. None of that applies to me or , mine. Nor to most generations here. But this is the best that you seem to be able to do.

I call this "Guilt Politics....Guilt Education." I dont automatically by default bear this burden.

You do realize do you not...that Native Americans here qualify for a college education at pubic expense...Yes?? Yet this does not seem to be helping them. Much better you concentrate on that..than guilt politics ..why it does not seem to be working??

I say this in contrast to our Veterans who have had their college benfits cut out from under them by this administration. Our veterans are required to go and bleed across the world for someone elses war and take first place risks....and then come home to second ..third or further down the road considerations and promises.

You know..if more military people knew this informations ..do you suppose it could stop wars?? But we must keep potential voters on the dole/purse at the expense of our Veterans. ...while trying to discount Veterans benefits as well as Veterans votes. Very interesting things going on out here. Even put illegal aliens on the dole for votes..but not our Veterans Benefits.

Adding this line in edit...to top all this off about our Veterans being second place citizens compared to other potential voters....our government is also of sufficient intelligence to announce that Veterans are also potential domestic terrorists and on a watch list. LOL LOL LOL. One needs to seriously go to public school to get someone to fight for them under this kind of intelligence. Only public school can dumb down leadership this far.



Rath...dont waste your time trying to make me feel guilty about the native indians here ..they get more government handouts than most of us.



Womens rights???? What are they ...?? You are going to have a very difficult time with me on that one too when I know that in any store around here and across this nation...there is a ratio of goods on the shelves and racks of 7 to 1 in favor of women verses men.

Yet the standard political mantra is that women do not make as much monies as do men.

If that is true Rath...at a 7 to 1 ratio of goods on the shelves and racks...whose monies are the women spending to afford to keep the racks full. They must be spending someones monies ...yes??

Tell me Rath...that what I just posted here is nonsense or gibberish?? I can do this in just about any economically affluent economy.

For I know Rath..that it is the female who determines how the bulk of monies are spent in economically affluent nations...on both big ticket and small ticket items..not the male. The male merely earns the monies ..often at great risk to his health and life...not the female.

In an economically affluent economic/social structure this leaves the females able to work in jobs which better suit their personalities not necessarily to go where the monies are ..but for better social conditions/personal conditions.

One need not be a genius to see this everywhere in front of them in a econonmically affluent nation. IN non economically affluent nations one sees very little of this and women work and are injured more often on the jobs..even loss of life. This is equality Rath...not the hoax you are attempting.

Much of what you are posting is dependent on standard default settings including "guilt programming " to play through and get others to be silent..or censor others.

You need to get a handle on the idea that there are people out here who have taught themselves to think around the standard M1A political education which tries to default through and or silence opposition or debate. It does not work with me Rath. You are going to need alot more practice.

Your mindset is exactly the kind of mindset to which most of our body politic loves and our media caters to. No problem with me on this....just be ready for it to be debated against.

There is no problem here with womens rights. There is a huge problem with male ignorance. Most of the males I know can do a point spread and clap for the cheerleaders and beer...but I am not one of them.

Womens rights is become mostly about sexuality and reproduction. What a waste of time. If this is all women have is their sexualiity and reproducation and to force these on a untutored and unthinking populace...on the public purse..we are headed for a pitfall.

There is much more to life than sex..and sexuality/reproduction. And I do not see these "Enlightened " women of today lining up for equality in RISK taking while trying to censor any opposition.

Someone here in leadership or through their puppets in leadership is trying to make this nation return to the world template of the ancient fertility religions....rampant runnaway sexuality of all kinds to where the people become to "Totally Depraved" that they do not know better than to define themselves by their sex and sexuality. What a low gutter standard by which to declare and boast of ones humanity.
No better than a base animal.

I am not speaking against sexuality per se..here ..but the exploitation of it on the public purse...and by leadership for votes.
They are using and misusing both the women and the nation to this phony/ersatz template for lucre.

This is a definition Rath...of Whoredom.

Buying, selling, and trading the very soul of a nation to a phony template and cause for lucre...and our own leadership,the media, as well as public education is in on it. And if the churches are also not teaching this to their flocks ..they too are in on it.



Hope some of you get the point/points I am making here.

My thanks to all for their posts,

Orangetom

rath wrote:

blackvault wrote:Warning sent. Name calling and insults are not welcome here.[/mod]

orangetom1999 wrote:Rath,

Thanks for your response.

All irrelevant gibberish.

Oh..quite correct here. I am not saying that the Magna Carta was not important in history...just that it is not the whole story. For some reason ..you..without clarification or expounding on the nature of history itself..seem to put the Magna Carta up as the creme de la creme. I dont think so.


While it has been some time since I read the Magna Carta...one of the sidelights which at first I found very humorous...was that the King decreed a standard for what was a tankard of ale across the kingdom.

I thought this quite funny considering the seriousness of the Charter being considered..but only later realized that a standard of commerce was in fact a necessity for the operation ...even a standard for a tankard of ale. Not being much of a drinker I at first found this quite funny...but only in retrospect of the bigger picture found it reasonable for effective commerce.

But nonetheless you did not use the whole of history ..only the Magna Carta.

I Don't need to use the whole of history. Why do i need to use the whole of history.

We are talking about how the British peasants revolted & sort to kill the king, unless he passed basic human rights.

& as my earlier posts stated ...

many nations such as Australia ... Canada .... New Zealand ... & Australia, but to name a few. When building their own nations used the magna carta ( amongst other historical documents ) as the bases of their own Constitutions & bills of right.

We the people / Australia took the British & Greek electoral system, that only allowed rich landholders & politicians forwarded the right to vote. & Australia passed world first voting rights to all taxpayers even those who did not own any land .... & also gave woman equal rights to vote. Giving all people the right to fair & free elections & installed the principle of no taxation without representation.

It then spread around the world & is known as the Australian electoral system

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P57KNR_yKaA[/youtube]



The USA also made improvements to the basic magna carta ... As did Canada & New Zealand ect ect.

That was my point all along & i stated it so many times.

The USA did not do all the things your nationalistic propaganda claimed. as many of the individual freedoms & other things you hold dear & true, & self evident & all that .... you copied from other nations who had the freedoms already' long before the USA.


It is very clear the first time you even heard about or read the Magna Carta was when i posted it. As many of your claims & assumptions are as far wrong as one could ever be on the subject.

at1with0 wrote:I think your skills in copynpaste are magnificent.

He does have a talent with the ctrl-c and ctrl-v

yes rath........ I crawled out from under a rock again....... your hilarious

Most of what I read in the last few pages was rath insulting people. Oh yeah and seemingly endless copy and pasting. It's tiring always having to scroll through to the end of your lengthy and uninteresting posts so I can get to the intelligent subject matter.

We get it, Australia is Heaven, USA is a fiery inferno and you want to give away all your guns.

capricorn wrote:

at1with0 wrote:I think your skills in copynpaste are magnificent.

He does have a talent with the ctrl-c and ctrl-v

yes rath........ I crawled out from under a rock again....... your hilarious

Most of what I read in the last few pages was rath insulting people. Oh yeah and seemingly endless copy and pasting. It's tiring always having to scroll through to the end of your lengthy and uninteresting posts so I can get to the intelligent subject matter.

We get it, Australia is Heaven, USA is a fiery inferno and you want to give away all your guns.

Oh so you do get it ..... That's all im saying.

Hell if i knew you got it.

& as for the cut and past jobs .... Well i find it important that the facts are reported as they are written .... & not changed to suit your propaganda slant.

as you so often do.

Change the facts that is.

( but i can play that game just fine.

No more cut and past ok ... ( just my very own opinions ..... ( are you ready for that. )

Rath,

I am astonished that you should have to ask this question..particularly as the first thing in your previous post to me out of the starting block. I dont think you realize what you are asking here ..the totallity of it ..not the provincialness.

I Don't need to use the whole of history. Why do i need to use the whole of history.

You need to use more history because I will use more history. You seem dependent on only a provincial amount of history ...very similar to a progressive politician today. These progressive politicians seem to count on the idea that most people have little grasp of history and what it means. Therefore they think that with what they know combined with the lack of historical perspective on the part of most people...that their prejudices can default through without debate or opposition. That they are automatically by default operating from the moral and ethical high ground.

The other historical fingerprint of such progressive politicains is that they often work off and parasite off the emotions or guilt control of other people in order to silence and or censor opposition. This fingerprint is coming back today ..big time by our leadership.

And our news media is in on this hoax ..as the media..is rapidly becoming very talboid like....just like leadership..emotions and guilt conditioning.

Your posts come across in just this manner...standard M1A guilt conditioning and tabloid like.

There are people out here with enough knowledge and historical perspective to see this coming ...over and over again.


You know..since I am talking about history...and tieing this to current events and trends...I am going to post this as a historical consideration and link it to the source. Particularly since this President and the administration which supports him like to make him look like Abraham Lincoln.

Here is a sobering quote by Abe Lincoln:

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
—U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia: The Spoken and Written Words of A. Lincoln
Arranged for Ready Reference, Archer H. Shaw (NY, NY: Macmillan, 1950)

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/Lincoln.html


Notice carefully the part about working on the prejudices of the people.


This is a way of saying ..divide and conquer...division ..not unity.

I bring this up because when you try to justify your beliefs...you attempt to put down harshly ..not unite or get others to understand...

This is tearing assunder ...not leadership...which is the problem with our current crop of leadership. ...they do not lead...they divide.


They are attempting to make the Rich..."disposable and exendable"...dividing the nation on this issue.

They are attempting to make gun owners..."Disposable and expendable" Gun owners who just like the rich have committed no crime and been charged with no crime. ..nor tried by a jury...only trial by press....just like the rich.

And now they are working to do this to Southerners..to further divide the nation..disposability and expendability.

http://southernnationalist.com/blog/201 ... nt-page-1/



This is not leadership..but working on the prejudices of the people by a corporation known as government. It is also guilt conditioning.
Taking advantage of people not being aware of history.

Which is why Rath..I keep pointing out more history and showing your provincialness in this. How you attempt to work on the prejudices of the people out here hoping they know little history.

This is also why in many posts here on Black Vault ..I keep bringing up the concept and understanding of Democide. Death by ones own government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

We are talking about how the British peasants revolted & sort to kill the king, unless he passed basic human rights.

No Rath..we were not talking about that perspective you quoted above. I was talking about how the Magna Carta did no such thing. Nor did Oliver Cromwell and his Execution of King Charles in 1649.

I was talking about how our founders used the knowledge of Oliver Cromwell and his turning on and revolting/executing the king..as justification for them turning on and revolting against King George here in America.

The issues of the founders here turning on the King after attempting to redress their greviences ...is the basis for our Second Government which is the one existing today ..the first having failed miserably ...the Articles of Confederation.

The second government is what is the basis of our Rights here.. The king has no interest in granting basic human rights...for in most nations today...human rights are a privilege granted by a sovereign...They are not something in which the people of these nations were born. Privileges can be taken away by the sovereign.

You can see our own leadership today attempting to take this very position of privileges verses rights and depending on a people not knowing any history in order to default through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6MmCe5qzFQ

Here we see our own Secretary of the Treasury claiming the Rich need to pay more taxes for the "Privilege " of being an American.

You have to go to public school to get this stupid unless you are counting on the American people being even more stupid and unknowlegable in history. Most Americans are born American and their rights are from their birth..not a privilege granted by a soverign.

You know..Rath...that dividing the people stuff..so they can be more easily conquered.

The USA did not do all the things your nationalistic propaganda claimed.

Rath...dont waste my time with this type of thing. I dont approve of what our natonalistic propaganda has become. Today it is heavily dependent on public education...(non thinking) to default through. It is not even American nationalistic propaganda..but international propaganda.

It is very clear the first time you even heard about or read the Magna Carta was when i posted it. As many of your claims & assumptions are as far wrong as one could ever be on the subject.

Sorry Rath..but I have known for many many years now what happened at Runnymede. I just dont put the spin on it in importance you seem want to do. I have no interest in becoming British or International in image as someone here in leadership positions is want to make us.

Runnymede and King John are not a default setting for us to be a automatic default part of the world and give up our beliefs and understandings...for international beliefs and understandings. We are not automtaically guilty by default...without a trial...without formal charges...without a jury of our peers.....as many in leadership positions are want to do today..to work on the prejudices of the people in favor or their pejudices.

As Americans we do not need to prove our innocence...verses as the rest of the world believes...that we are guilty and must prove our innocence.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom