The Black Vault

at1with0,

I don't think that was the title of the OP of this thread. But the pattern is familiar. Blame God.

Orangetom

to which you replied in order to support my position quoted above in order to blame God.

Did God create or not create the human species?

You keep verifying my position in blaming god..not human action....human decision, human responsibility. You want all the choices without responsibility.
This historically is also the position of what in some religions is called "The Good God."

Then to solidify your position by default..much like todays crop of politicians.....you use this technique.

I'll take that as a yes.

You keep asking the wrong question at1with0.

The question at issue here is ..are humans accountable for their actions...to God or to something or someone else?? If not to God then who or whom..or what??

That is the matter at issue here. Not holding God accountable. If Humans are not accountable to God...than why would they try to blame God?? That illogic does not even make good nonsense once one learns to think it through.

Once one knows this ...it makes much of human logic and reason ...nonsensical...not even good nonsense.

THen ..once you know this ..you can look at our leadership and see something quite different from the product advertised.

Thanks,
Orangetom

According to you, humans are not accountable for their actions. This is because you believe that God chooses who it doles out its grace to independently of what humans do or do not do (which is kind of a slippery notion). You believe God is not accountable for any of its actions and I disagree. I don't blame God for natural disasters but you believe God flooded the world so that the human species could be reborn (that didn't turn out so well now did it). Yes, if that were the case, I would hold God accountable for genocide, if I believed that was God's motivation for ultimate destruction.

I never said humans were not accountable for their actions.

It is you who would have God accountable as you stated in your post.

If God is accountable and at fault..then humans are off the hook. No deep thinking needed here.

I said what humans do not do is determine their Salvation...for He does this alone, by His Blood, and for His reasons..not ours.

This is because you believe that God chooses who it doles out its grace to independently of what humans do or do not do (which is kind of a slippery notion)

This is not a slippery notion..it is a Sovereign understanding. A Sovereign God. By His Sovereign Grace.


If humans are the determiner of their salvation...than what difference does it make what happened on the cross??

I don't blame God for natural disasters but you believe God flooded the world so that the human species could be reborn (that didn't turn out so well now did it). Yes, if that were the case, I would hold God accountable for genocide, if I believed that was God's motivation for ultimate destruction.

I dont blame God for natural disasters as well.
To my knowledge God flooded the world to preserve 8 people from falling into the corruption of the rest of the world at that time. He was not interested in preserving the corrupt world.

For it states in the Word that Noah was "perfect in his generations." This implies that they had not corrupted themselves as had the rest of the world at that time.

You see at1with0...that is the very topic and subject of the "Ever War" unto this day. The very attempt to bring back wholesale corruption to everyone and get rid of God's way from this world. In particular ..to get rid of the children of the freewoman..and replace them with the children fo the bondwoman. To overthrow the people God has chosen and replace them with the corrupt world...by any means. To insure that there is no one on this earth "Perfect in their generations." This means ...no one covered in His Blood.

Thanks,
Orangetom

orangetom1999 wrote:I never said humans were not accountable for their actions.

Do humans have free will? Can a human go against God's will?

It is you who would have God accountable as you stated in your post.

If God is accountable and at fault..then humans are off the hook. No deep thinking needed here.

Humans did not create darkness and evil so yeah they are off the hook for that one. Humans didn't cause the great flood, so yeah they are off the hook for that one, too.

I said what humans do not do is determine their Salvation...for He does this alone, by His Blood, and for His reasons..not ours.

This is an untenable position for it means humans are not accountable for their actions, thoughts, and deeds.

If humans are the determiner of their salvation...than what difference does it make what happened on the cross??

None whatsoever.

On one had you say we do not have free will, than say we are accountable for our actions OT. If God is choosing ahead of time, I guess Charles Manson, and Adam Lanza never did anything wrong, nor made the decision to do so, they were just the unlucky ones to be in those bodies.

I don't recall OT saying we don't have free will. As far as I understand it, he's saying that going to church on Sunday, going through the motions and even putting in a flower bed for the Priest/Pastor won't necessarily guarantee you're saved. Just because you're nice doesn't mean you'll be in Heaven singing praises to Him for all eternity. You see, I know many good Christians and then I've met those who were called. Let me tell you, there is a difference.

He did actually say in salvation, we have no free will, we are chosen. Unless you show your own free will to accept Jesus as your Savior most Christians would disagree with that. I'm sure I'm about to see about 10 paragraphs over it now, since I have no idea about most of what he says.

G2 is correct. OT believes that we do not choose our salvation, God chooses.

En-Lugal wrote:I don't recall OT saying we don't have free will. As far as I understand it, he's saying that going to church on Sunday, going through the motions and even putting in a flower bed for the Priest/Pastor won't necessarily guarantee you're saved. Just because you're nice doesn't mean you'll be in Heaven singing praises to Him for all eternity. You see, I know many good Christians and then I've met those who were called. Let me tell you, there is a difference.

Whoever believes that being nice and going through motions means being a good Christian
is chewing on a pile of horse dung.

I keep going back to John 3:16, for one thing, it is unambiguous. The business with the bond woman and free woman introduces uncertainty in that no one knows if they are the heir to one or the other unless their family tree is of Biblical proportions. Either that or being an heir to the free woman is a figure of speech, which means it is less straightforward than John 3:16.

greeney2 wrote:He did actually say in salvation, we have no free will, we are chosen. Unless you show your own free will to accept Jesus as your Savior most Christians would disagree with that. I'm sure I'm about to see about 10 paragraphs over it now, since I have no idea about most of what he says.

Well, that makes sense in that you exercise your free will to accept Christ as your lord and savior. That's how it works after all. He cannot and will not force you to accept Him. Just announcing that isn't enough to save you if you continue to live in a way that goes against a good Christian life. In other words, if you aren't walking with Him it won't do you a bit of good. Ultimately though, your salvation is in the hands of God the Father when He judges you. If you walked with Christ then He will speak up for you, if not then He will declare that He never knew you. It's all in the Bible.

En-Lugal wrote:

greeney2 wrote:He did actually say in salvation, we have no free will, we are chosen. Unless you show your own free will to accept Jesus as your Savior most Christians would disagree with that. I'm sure I'm about to see about 10 paragraphs over it now, since I have no idea about most of what he says.

Well, that makes sense in that you exercise your free will to accept Christ as your lord and savior. That's how it works after all. He cannot and will not force you to accept Him. Just announcing that isn't enough to save you if you continue to live in a way that goes against a good Christian life. In other words, if you aren't walking with Him it won't do you a bit of good. Ultimately though, your salvation is in the hands of God the Father when He judges you. If you walked with Christ then He will speak up for you, if not then He will declare that He never knew you. It's all in the Bible.

How much of that do you accept?