The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

Jesus was born years earlier than thought, claims Pope

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby orangetom1999 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:57 am

frrostedman wrote..


Brother Tom,

It's not dumb. We should all at least be curious as to the year Christ was born.


No problem Frostedman,

I am not the least bit interested in when Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins..was born. For if it was important the Lord would have made this clear to us. Nor is it important when any of the other figures in the Olde or New Testament were born..or the Lord would have made this clear to us. There are things to be known by their absence in the Word. And Birthdays are one of them.

What is of importance and significance in the Word is for whom Jesus The Christ For Remission Of Sins....died. For whom He died, was burried, and raised again in Life. For whom the Tomb is Empty.


That Frostedman is the message of the whole Bible...the lineage from Adam..as well as His priestly lineage and also His Spiritual Lineage.

All of this from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament is to tell us of this ...not His Birthday.



Greeny2,

You do what you want in your house. I do not tell others how to run their house nor spend their monies. I choose not to partake of these things because of what I have learned under tutelage of elders who know...from both The Word as well as secular history.

Born again is not the same as physical birth...you should know this. It is only a comparison..likened unto...a figure of speech to show a spiritual birth...or rebirth...that we have been purchased from out of this world.

You are quite correct about the Vatican and it's artifacts. I would like to get a look in the classified portion of the Vatican Library.

Nonetheless ..the Vatican does not, for all it's knowledge and wisdom/artifacts, explain the absence of birthdays or any such instruction from the Word..OLde or New Testament. It took me some time to notice this absence ..not just from the Vatican but also non Vatican sources.



En-Lugal,

Wow!! I am gratified to see that someone else knows. When first I learned via Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons" I was stunned by how much we were never taught in public school or history. It took me quite some time to realize that this was not accidental and for the purpose of keeping us on some kind of treadmill of non knowledge and non thinking..but mostly emoting ..non reasoning. I was so stunned it took me awhile to connect the dots to things further down the road.

I do not concern myself with end times for this is not in my hands. I also do not believe I deserve a "Get out of Hell free card." Well stated in your wording and phrasing. I believe I deserve hell and damnation and nothing more.

Where and when I go is totally up to the Lord and for His reasons and purposes. Amen.

I too have great difficulty understanding how many Believers do not have a clue..even though we are told exactly this about both Believers and Unbelievers.

The traditions of men is a powerful powerful inducement and seduction.

Thank you for your post,

Orangetom
orangetom1999
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby greeney2 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:54 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:Nonetheless ..the Vatican does not, for all it's knowledge and wisdom/artifacts, explain the absence of birthdays or any such instruction from the Word..OLde or New Testament. It took me some time to notice this absence ..not just from the Vatican but also non Vatican sources.


You really think in a world of 7 billion people on the verge of total destruction, God cares about a Birthday party, a Birthday Cake, and giving a child a Birthday present?
greeney2
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby frrostedman » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:37 pm

En-Lugal wrote:I agree with OT here. The Christian faith is so deeply rooted in Paganism I don't understand how most don't see it.

Most don't see it, because it's not true.

This is especially true of the Catholic church. What are saints, if not demigods of a pantheon?

Oh, I don't know. For starters, maybe the Saints are exactly what the biblical account purports them to be?

The other denominations don't revere the saints but still hold Mary and the Apostles in the highest regard.

What Saints are you talking about? The biblical Saints are highly revered by all Christian denominations.

The Jews basically did what all people did before them, dropped or demonized the old pantheon in favor of their new God, the one true God. Christian's followed suit and so everything that came before is now satanic and evil.

The Jews were never Pantheists, or Polytheists. To both the Christian and the Jew, nothing came before their Monotheistic belief in the one true God. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Celebrating Pagan holidays but doing so with a Christian theme and demonizing the Pagan celebration of that same day. Even the months and days of the week still retain their Pagan roots in the Christian calendar.

Most anti-Christian people take a cursory view or cling to internet rhetoric when it comes to established Christian holidays--assuming that Christian celebrations are rooted in Paganism simply because they are celebrated in the same calendar period. But all it takes is a wee bit of research to find that the reason Christian Church-endorsed celebrations coincide with Pagan ones, is because the Church sought to protect its flock from straying. The Church was left with 2 choices: (a) allow the Pagan celebrations to be the only thing going on when they occurred, thus allowing for a conflict for Christians who had to either resist the allure of joining in the festivities or stay home, or (b) realign the Christian celebrations to coincide and compete with the Pagan celebrations, so as to remove the conflict within the Church body altogether. Thus, the celebration of Christ's birth, for example, was moved to the time when Pagans celebrated Winter Solstice, All-Saints Day was moved to when Pagans celebrated their Pomona feast and the end of Summer.

It's interesting to see how Jews and Christians have adapted the Sumerian religion that came before into their belief systems. If you think the Bible is dark, try reading some of the Sumerian texts which the Bible heavily borrows from or outright copies. Like the proverbs, for example.

The biblical account was passed down verbally before it was finally recorded on tablets of stone and then ancient scrolls. Who's to say the Sumerian stories weren't drawn from the official biblical accounts?

Christians are obsessed with time, especially end times. Never mind that God said it isn't for man to know the hour, they keep looking anyway. Men are curious creatures to be sure.

We Christians don't spend all our days fretting the end times, wondering if today is the day. We instead do as we are told, by staying vigilant and prepared for that inevitable day. Jesus emphatically warned Christians not to stop thinking of that great and terrible day.

think the reason God said that is because he wanted man to rely on their faith that if they believed, when the end of days comes it won't matter. However, it seems man wants to know how long they've got to keep sinning before repenting at the last minute for that "get out of hell free card". You know, so they can covet thy neighbor's wife one last time. :lol:

That's amusing, but, severely misguided. I'm sure you were joking, hence the "lol."
Last edited by frrostedman on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby frrostedman » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:39 pm

greeney2 wrote:
orangetom1999 wrote:Nonetheless ..the Vatican does not, for all it's knowledge and wisdom/artifacts, explain the absence of birthdays or any such instruction from the Word..OLde or New Testament. It took me some time to notice this absence ..not just from the Vatican but also non Vatican sources.


You really think in a world of 7 billion people on the verge of total destruction, God cares about a Birthday party, a Birthday Cake, and giving a child a Birthday present?

God probably cares even less than OrangeTom does... if that's possible.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby orangetom1999 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:24 pm

Greeny2 wrote...

You really think in a world of 7 billion people on the verge of total destruction, God cares about a Birthday party, a Birthday Cake, and giving a child a Birthday present?



What???? Surely you jest here Greeny2???

What I think on this makes no difference. I merely state my views. But what think is not it. What is important is what is declared in God's word about birthdays??? Also about for whom Jesus died...not His birthday.

I also know Greeny2...that we are to be in this world but not of this world.

With this in mind...you should re read your postings again..and particularly the quote above where you are debating exactly that...to be in this world and of this world.

Greeny2....give me the name of the god of this world...by name please???


Thanks,
Orangetom
orangetom1999
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby greeney2 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:16 am

orangetom1999 wrote:With this in mind...you should re read your postings again..and particularly the quote above where you are debating exactly that...to be in this world and of this world.


And the extremes of what this means to our daily life, well differs between all religions.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:54 am

greeney2 wrote:
orangetom1999 wrote:With this in mind...you should re read your postings again..and particularly the quote above where you are debating exactly that...to be in this world and of this world.


And the extremes of what this means to our daily life, well differs between all religions.




You know Greeny2...after being shocked awake in reading the origins of many of our traditional holidays in Alexander Hyslop's "The Two Babylons" I began to look around me at the traditions going on ..at the holidays and festivities....and decided to give them up...all of them.

What was the kicker was to see people I knew were Atheists...devoted non believers...celebrating christmas. That is what finally pushed me over the edge to give it up..that it was a man made tradition and there was nothing holy about it.

For only One is Holy...all day ..every day...all days. Not on a particular a day...but only One...and on all days...every day.


I am busting out laughing to myself to watch the Atheists carrying on trying devoutly, according to their very fervent and zealous belief system, to stamp out anything resembling a Christian christmas..and then watch the believers with their comebacks.

It is perfect..for both groups are being fooled and conned...kept on the puppet strings. This happens every year at this time but it is waxing worse and worse as the atheists believe they have and are entitled to the field themselves...the whole field. You know...entitlement thinking.

But make no mistake here..both groups are being conned on this.

While you are speculating...do you suppose God has a sense of humor???

Talk about extreme!!!


Oh..and I am not talking about all religions here...only one religion..and only one Faith.


Thanks,
Orangetom
orangetom1999
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby at1with0 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:39 am

The Christ is never born and never dies.

It is a title.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9183
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby greeney2 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:58 am

Go back and do some more reading on improving your "holier than thou" attitude OT. I'm quite sure I was taught, that was considered a sin in itself. What have you done but sit in Judgement of everyone else. Trying to be eloquent with your wording, really is arrogance, with a "looking down at" flavor . I don't know, some people have that ol fashioned television education and all stupid to you, and others just have tunnel vision, my way or the hiway. Funny the ones with the tunnel vision, are always the ones telling, and never hearing.

Religions are different, and if the meaning of a single passage was so simple, we would not have hundreds of Christian religions and doctrines alone. But they do all believe in the Death and Resurrection, and that Jesus was born as a mortal. I do not know the roots of all the rituals of every one of these religions, nor does it matter to me. We are in the times we are in, and we interact in the world we have. This is our era of time. If your choice is to live like a monk, be my guest. Anything less does not mean you are living your life without reverence and thanks to the Lord. We all cross our Tees, and dot our I's a little different, but we all know how its done. In the scope of the condition of this world, I do not have a problem spreading a little joy and happiness, when times are bleak. God tells us to appreciate the things we have and our blessings, so if a Birthday is a way of Thanking God for giving someone as that blessing, that is the issue, praising God for that blessing. Bestowing Love to a child, on his birthday is not a sin in my book. Be my guest on your way of looking at it, hopefully you do not have a house full of 8 kids.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9668
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby En-Lugal » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:41 pm

Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: You and I will probably agree on many if not most conservative issues but in matters of religion, we will not.

frrostedman wrote:Most don't see it, because it's not true.


What makes it not true? That you deny it? I can deny that the sky is blue but that doesn't make it so.

frrostedman wrote:Oh, I don't know. For starters, maybe the Saints are exactly what the biblical account purports them to be?


Oh really? What does the Bible purport them to be, exactly? Other than some rather vague mentions of saints being righteous and their prayers holding great significance. Catholics seem to go above and beyond what the Bible says about saints. What with the praying to them and all. Therefore, my statement about them being demigods of a pantheon still stands.

frrostedman wrote:What Saints are you talking about? The biblical Saints are highly revered by all Christian denominations.


I don't recall a single instance of this after years of sitting in Baptist and Pentecostal pews, not one.

frrostedman wrote:The Jews were never Pantheists, or Polytheists. To both the Christian and the Jew, nothing came before their Monotheistic belief in the one true God. So I don't know what you're talking about.


I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be knowingly deceitful. There is ample evidence to prove that the Hebrew people were Polytheists and were punished as a result. Don't insult my intelligence.

frrostedman wrote:Most anti-Christian people take a cursory view or cling to internet rhetoric when it comes to established Christian holidays--assuming that Christian celebrations are rooted in Paganism simply because they are celebrated in the same calendar period. But all it takes is a wee bit of research to find that the reason Christian Church-endorsed celebrations coincide with Pagan ones, is because the Church sought to protect its flock from straying. The Church was left with 2 choices: (a) allow the Pagan celebrations to be the only thing going on when they occurred, thus allowing for a conflict for Christians who had to either resist the allure of joining in the festivities or stay home, or (b) realign the Christian celebrations to coincide and compete with the Pagan celebrations, so as to remove the conflict within the Church body altogether. Thus, the celebration of Christ's birth, for example, was moved to the time when Pagans celebrated Winter Solstice, All-Saints Day was moved to when Pagans celebrated their Pomona feast and the end of Summer.


So...you agree with what I said? Albeit in a strange, round-about fashion. :think: If true, why do Christians get so up in arms about Pagans anyway? Why the need to compete? Why restructure your religion, festivals and holy days to coincide and compete with other faiths?

frrostedman wrote:The biblical account was passed down verbally before it was finally recorded on tablets of stone and then ancient scrolls. Who's to say the Sumerian stories weren't drawn from the official biblical accounts?


Seeing as how the Sumerian texts predate Christianity to the tune of 3500 years, I seriously doubt that. You Christians are the new kids on the block, remember? More like, the illiterate Hebrew people passed down the Sumerian religion orally as only priests were allowed to read and write.

frrostedman wrote:We Christians don't spend all our days fretting the end times, wondering if today is the day. We instead do as we are told, by staying vigilant and prepared for that inevitable day. Jesus emphatically warned Christians not to stop thinking of that great and terrible day.


Are you sure about that? I don't recall Jesus telling anyone to be obsessed with the end times. Keep in mind that He will return, sure. I'm pretty sure He meant living a Christian life was the best way to prepare, not sitting around looking for signs of the end of days.

Luke 12:40 ESV
You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

Mark 13:9 ESV
But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them.

frrostedman wrote:That's amusing, but, severely misguided. I'm sure you were joking, hence the "lol."


Actually, it isn't amusing because that's what passes for a Christian today. Most don't even know what it is that their Bible says. Most are hypocrites that believe they can live any way they wish and repent at the last moment. Those that go to church behave one way there and another when out and about. I'm not suggesting that you behave this way, this isn't a personal assault on your person.
The modern definition of ‘racist’ is someone who’s winning an argument with a liberal.
User avatar
En-Lugal
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests