The Black Vault

event_horizon wrote:Eldensword, I've got no problem with people simply believing in "god". Religion is what bothers me.

But the main thing I have a problem with is "where did god come from?" If "god" can create itself from nothing then what's stopping anything else from being created from nothing?...like us?...



Perhaps "God" evolved in another dimension...and I would have no problem with that idea...as long as it involved many other "gods".

The most ridiculous idea ever invented by man is the concept that "God was and always will be" -- never having a beginning.

e_h - I share a "problem with religion" with you. However, its a series of cogs and a mechanism that feeds a fear of God into people and believe it or not, tames them on a huge scale. Why try to disrupt or destroy something that makes the sheeple behave well, act pleasant and pay their taxes? You wouldn't actually want to break that. It's fun to think about chaos and an apocalypse...It's fun to think about walking down the street with a AA-12 and a 100 rd drum, just "cleaning" the area up of zombie scum...But in reality, War Is Hell. Not one you'd really wish for. Now I'm getting preachy.

So, back on message - I think you’re on the right track, but who knows? We've only recently been able to start conceptualizing the 11 dimensions as theorized by quantum physicists in trying to explain string theory. As that started to happen, teams of mathematicians started to tear apart Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, finding dozens of holes and new ways to re-evaluate the equation to include concepts in time-travel!
Look, I’m just saying now is NOT the time to poo-poo ANY theory or concept, since neither party has actual facts. Concepts, theories and “projections” along with “feelings” and “enlightenment” are not facts.
So, no facts? - Then Faith  - At least that’s what’s logical to me.

Event, nobody can tell you that answer, including you disproving anything, yet you continue to demand each and every believer be able to tell you, to your terms some answer, while at the same time can not even express what answer would satisfy you. The Atheist dismisses any and all concepts of Faith, mocks it, and demands some kind of physical proof, rejecting any and all reasons within any Faith based believing. In doing so you have developed a real hostility for those who have Faith and do believe in God. You declare you will go to you dying breathe not believing in God, so why even continue trying to demand proof from anyone, you can not even define, just like Humphreys. You have even bragged about being able to strip someone of their Faith, but you just got done saying you are not a wicked person. You do try to harm people spiritually!

Event_Horizon
That's got nothing to do with it. I don't set out to do harm to people so I've got nothing to fear about being watched. If "God" is all-knowing and all-good then I'd have nothing to worry about, because it would know that I'm not a wicked person. My lifestyle wouldn't change if I found out there was a "God". Sure I'd have a new perspective on things, but that's it.

greeney2 wrote:Event, nobody can tell you that answer, including you disproving anything, yet you continue to demand each and every believer be able to tell you, to your terms some answer, while at the same time can not even express what answer would satisfy you. The Atheist dismisses any and all concepts of Faith, mocks it, and demands some kind of physical proof, rejecting any and all reasons within any Faith based believing. In doing so you have developed a real hostility for those who have Faith and do believe in God. You declare you will go to you dying breathe not believing in God, so why even continue trying to demand proof from anyone, you can not even define, just like Humphreys. You have even bragged about being able to strip someone of their Faith, but you just got done saying you are not a wicked person. You do try to harm people spiritually!

Event_Horizon
That's got nothing to do with it. I don't set out to do harm to people so I've got nothing to fear about being watched. If "God" is all-knowing and all-good then I'd have nothing to worry about, because it would know that I'm not a wicked person. My lifestyle wouldn't change if I found out there was a "God". Sure I'd have a new perspective on things, but that's it.

My all-time favorite part of this discussion in any forum or face to face is the following:

The next time you slam your fist on the table to demand that whomever you're speaking with believe your "facts" to make an argument - Remember, if YOU, yourself can't comprehend that the table you are slamming your fist on is made up of countless particles, assigned instruction to represent matter in such a way and that your fist is made up of particles receiving different instructions to be a different material and both, coming together represents the strong and weak nuclear force coming in contact with gravity, and therefore not actually touching in any way, shape or form...Which is THEN representative of the fact that your clothing isn't actually touching your body and your feet aren't technically touching the ground...You are, on a quantum level suspended freely in space...Yeah, if you can wrap your head around THAT first...Then you can start arguing about "facts" and making fun of a person's belief system.

But if you CAN conceptualize all of that...How crazy would one be to fight about what we "know" and "don't know" at this stage of our humanity.

We have a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go.

Scientists, keep trying! People, keep the faith!

Yes Eldensword, I do understand that part of quantum mechanics. However...

Since the moment humans had enough brains to start pondering existence they arrived at the conclusion that "God" did it all. It's backwards "knowledge." How can anyone arrive at such a conclusion before anything is truly known? Remember...the Earth was flat and existed in a dome, with everything in the sky revolving around us -- these are the people that invented the concept of "God".

And yet still, with all of our scientific advancements and astrophysical discoveries there is still not one single shred of evidence that such a being exists. And again...sure the universe appears to be designed for life to exist -- that's why we exist in it. But the best theories out today are that universes are springing into existence every millisecond or so...in an infinity higher-dimensional space that has no beginning or end. Most of these universes probably have different laws of physics that don't allow life to exist...then you've got our universe -- one or more out of zillions upon zillions that happen to have these appropriate conditions.

It all has to do with numbers and chance. Give something enough chances and eventually there will be ideal results. It simply makes more sense that this is reality, than a reality where a single all-powerful omnipresent/omniscient being always existed and created itself from nothing.

And I don't think humans truly need a "fear of God" to make them moral. I mean...look at the world right now...you've got a buncha priests molesting children, and people flying planes into buildings in the name of their religion. You're always going to have good people and bad people no matter what their beliefs are. Seriously...I'm a moral person because it comes naturally to me. I treat people the same way I would expect them to treat me. I don't need an invisible policeman to spook me into being a moral human being.

greeney2 wrote:You have even bragged about being able to strip someone of their Faith, but you just got done saying you are not a wicked person. You do try to harm people spiritually!

Ain't nothing wrong with stripping people of their bigoted religions...I think it would bring the world a little bit more together. Like I've said many times...I don't mind people simply believing in "God". It's their religions that need to go in the trash can. It's all nothing but ancient rhetoric.

You clearly have no intentions of bringing anyone together so you have succeeded, and I can not recall you ever asking what religion anyone is ever. Your idea must be any believe in God is the same religion.

That's because at the core of every religious belief is "God". If you wanna strip down the religion then the basic concept of "God" must be stripped down first. Only then can we get to the bottom of a universal understanding of there maybe being a "God". I know this is difficult for you to understand.

I understand, you claim its religions you are against on one hand, but do not ever address any specific religion or its practices, you attack the concept of God only. You counterdict yourself, when you say "I don't mind someone believing in God". That is not the truth, You do have a problem with it, because everyone here has told you they believe in God because of Faith or some other reason. Not one time have you made a question to if someone, are you a Catholic, Baptist, Morman, or whatever religion they are. I didn't hear Elden say a word about a religion or what church he attends. He just told you why he simply believes in God, and you had a problem with it.

event_horizon wrote:I don't mind people simply believing in "God". It's their religions that need to go in the trash can.

You still don't get it. What I have a problem with is people INSISTING that they KNOW "God" is real when there is no evidence for it. And insisting that such a thing exists only causes religions to excel. It's my way of battling all religions at the same time.

I don't have a problem with Eldenswords simple belief in "God"...but I do have a problem with his/her belief possibly morphing into a new cult or religion. That's the big picture.....and the big problem -- for all of us.

If you simply beleive in "God" then that's cool. Just don't start telling me how you're "God's" special person and have had some sort of special communication or contact with the thing....that's when things start getting twisted.

If "God" is so "great and almighty and all-loving" then the whole planet shouldn't be having so many conflicting ideas about it -- that's what makes it obvious that it's all in people's heads.

So you mock and ridicule whatever it is, when people tell you why they have Faith, or believe in God, and you badger them for proof, while you are stuck like a broken record, :Nope that is not proof", "Nope that is not proof". Nothing will ever satisfy you, Humphreys could not define what would be proof to him, and he gave up frustrated he could not convince one soul.

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