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# Questions that make you think...

## What are numbers?

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## Re: What are numbers?

I may be making a mistake in thinking that you are using the word relation the same way I would.

To me, a relation is a set of pairs where a pair (x,y) is a member of the relation if x is related to y. For example, the relation could be "is a parent of" and so (son, son's father) is a member of the relation while (nephew, cousin's father) is not.

All kinds of relations exist without quantification. Or perhaps you can tell me what you mean by relation and maybe then I will understand how quantification is always involved in relations.
"it is easy to grow crazy"

at1with0

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## Re: What are numbers?

All referenceables are numerable. Numeric designations are essentially tags for relational valuation. You are arbitrarily narrowing relation to set-pair correspondence, but numeration is still implicit. Numeration is always going to be implicit, because it is an essential feature of any relation example you could give.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

DIss0n80r

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## Re: What are numbers?

DIss0n80r wrote:All referenceables are numerable. Numeric designations are essentially tags for relational valuation. You are arbitrarily narrowing relation to set-pair correspondence, but numeration is still implicit. Numeration is always going to be implicit, because it is an essential feature of any relation example you could give.

How is numeration an essential feature of the relation example I gave?
"it is easy to grow crazy"

at1with0

Posts: 9141
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
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## Re: What are numbers?

Any referenceable is inherently a count for one. Relation is both singular and pluralistic.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

DIss0n80r

Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

## Re: What are numbers?

What do you mean?

A count for one?
"it is easy to grow crazy"

at1with0

Posts: 9141
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

## Re: What are numbers?

Never mind.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

DIss0n80r

Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

## Re: What are numbers?

Music explains most things to me.

May I offer this to add flavor to
the discussion?

Island_Girl

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Location: New Orleans

## Re: What are numbers?

Music and math are closely connected... Perhaps numbers can be "visualized" as notes or melodies or chords.
"it is easy to grow crazy"

at1with0

Posts: 9141
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

## Re: What are numbers?

"Abstraction consists essentially in the creation and utilization of ambiguity."

"Logic moves in one direction, the direction of clarity, coherence and structure. Ambiguity moves in the other direction, that of fluidity, openness, and release. Mathematics moves back and forth between these two poles. [...] It is the interaction between these different aspects that gives mathematics its power." - William Byers How Mathematicians Think
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

DIss0n80r

Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

## Re: What are numbers?

Reminds me of the set concept. I haven't come across a definition of the word set that depends on more primary notions. In what I've seen, sets are defined in ways that are ambiguous or not defined at all.
"it is easy to grow crazy"

at1with0

Posts: 9141
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

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