The Black Vault

Delusion (as it appears to me now) happens when one leaps to the least likely but easiest to believe.

The wiki article says that a delusion is a belief that is a conviction against which no amount of evidence overturns.

Some religious or spiritual beliefs by their nature may not be falsifiable, and hence cannot be described as false or incorrect, no matter whether the person holding these beliefs was diagnosed as delusional or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Consequently, some religious or spiritual beliefs do not meet the criteria for delusion.

My ultimate goal here is to figure out if belief in God is a delusion.

Well, it depends on what one means by belief and what one means by God; it also depends on why the person believes.

If you want to proove believing in God is Delusionary, you need to proove beyond any doubt God does not exist first. By the reading of your link, the belief in god would not even fall under the 4 kinds of delusions. It is not a clinical mental condition. There is considerable supporting reasons for the belief in God,not irrational, and not some totally bazzare idea, or unfounded history of God and religions of the world. These things have been part of the human race and passed on through centuries, therefore are not delusionsal.


A case could be made however for the Gay rights activists who favor same sex marriage, that a presecution Delusion by definition is an imagined senerio, and that the issue is truly not an overall concern, rather than a tool to advance an agenda. Playing the race card so to speak. Imagining some form of discrimination that is unfounded, and not really harming them.

greeney2 wrote:If you want to proove believing in God is Delusionary, you need to proove beyond any doubt God does not exist first. By the reading of your link, the belief in god would not even fall under the 4 kinds of delusions. It is not a clinical mental condition. There is considerable supporting reasons for the belief in God,not irrational, and not some totally bazzare idea, or unfounded history of God and religions of the world. These things have been part of the human race and passed on through centuries, therefore are not delusionsal.

What if I told you that God told me to detonate the sun to cleanse this solar system. How would you feel about whether or not that is a delusion?

A case could be made however for the Gay rights activists who favor same sex marriage, that a presecution Delusion by definition is an imagined senerio, and that the issue is truly not an overall concern, rather than a tool to advance an agenda. Playing the race card so to speak. Imagining some form of discrimination that is unfounded, and not really harming them.

So the ban that exists in most places against gay marriage is imaginary?

You need to read your own link, it tell you the answer to your questions. Your first is an example of what is called a bazzar delusion, cleary having nothing to do with general belief in God, which is not a delusion.


One the other issue I I do not see it as a ban, I see it as not meeting the requirments for a licence. Whats next letting boys into the girl scouts and brownies, and Visa Versa, calling that discrimination too? You can't be a cop if you 4' 8", or a fireman is you weight 450 pounds! You have to be physically fit to join the military, is that discrimination against the handicapped? Professional licences have requirments is that wrong? I had a higher standard to meet than other people was higher labor grades, was that discrimination?

Discrimination claims are about the most misused fabicated crock of crap, in our legal system. It is the most common way employers are sued, common way to fight terminations, and most common way to achieve a political triumph. Claim you are a minority of some sort, and that you are discriminated against. Racial discrimination, Religious discrimination, sexual or gender, womans equality, it just never ends. Nobody is shy about getting on the band wagon saying "Me too", I'm a victim too. Faking it is a delusion!

greeney2 wrote:You need to read your own link, it tell you the answer to your questions. Your first is an example of what is called a bazzar delusion, cleary having nothing to do with general belief in God, which is not a delusion.

I read the link; trust me, I am well aware of what is considered delusional. This thread isn't just about whether belief in God is delusional, it's about the soundness of the current definition (in society or in psychiatry) of the word delusion.

If the belief is not falsifiable, then it can't qualify for being delusional according to the link. If I hear a voice which I call God who tells me to detonate the sun, well, believing I heard God is not falsifiable and hence not a delusion according to the link. But according to the definition I made up (delusion is a leaping to the least likely but easiest to believe explanation), belief that it was God who is telling me to detonate the solar system might be delusion.

Now if I believe I hear the voice of God which says "love your neighbor," that is in line with the Bible and far fewer people would consider me attributing that voice to God as a delusion.

I hope the reader is not jumping to the conclusion that I believe belief in God is a delusion.

It can be but isn't necessarily.

The question is: when do you know you've crossed the line into delusion regarding beliefs surrounding God, whether that delusion is psychiatric or not.

One the other issue I I do not see it as a ban, I see it as not meeting the requirments for a licence. Whats next letting boys into the girl scouts and brownies, and Visa Versa, calling that discrimination too? You can't be a cop if you 4' 8", or a fireman is you weight 450 pounds! You have to be physically fit to join the military, is that discrimination against the handicapped? Professional licences have requirments is that wrong? I had a higher standard to meet than other people was higher labor grades, was that discrimination?

Discrimination claims are about the most misused fabicated crock of crap, in our legal system. It is the most common way employers are sued, common way to fight terminations, and most common way to achieve a political triumph. Claim you are a minority of some sort, and that you are discriminated against. Racial discrimination, Religious discrimination, sexual or gender, womans equality, it just never ends. Nobody is shy about getting on the band wagon saying "Me too", I'm a victim too. Faking it is a delusion!

Well there was a lot of hand waving but the fact remains that governments (city, state, federal) are banning gay marriage at present time. Thus gays feeling persecuted is NOT a paranoia-type delusion as you suggested it is.

As an aside, I'm guessing you're a straight white male without disabilities who would call himself a Christian. No wonder your attitude on discrimination is what it is. Have you ever been discriminated against in your life?

If you think you have been discriminated against, remember your words: Discrimination claims are about the most misused fabicated crock of crap, in our legal system.

How about believing God must be a republican? Is that delusional?

at1with0 wrote:My ultimate goal here is to figure out if belief in God is a delusion.

AGain it does not fit the criteria of our own link defining delusion. Your example of detonating the sun clearly is not a voice they all hear.

at1with0 wrote:I read the link; trust me, I am well aware of what is considered delusional.

Doesn't seem like it trying to compare detonating the sun and people hearing Love they neighbor. Which is rational?

at1with0 wrote:The question is: when do you know you've crossed the line into delusion regarding beliefs surrounding God, whether that delusion is psychiatric or not.

Depends on if the Phyciatrist is an Atheist or not.

at1with0 wrote:Thus gays feeling persecuted is NOT a paranoia-type delusion as you suggested it is.

I'm suggesting the feeling of persecution is faked and not a true feeling, they are all jumping on the bandwaggon, and do not really feel this way, playing the race card and pretending.

at1with0 wrote:As an aside, I'm guessing you're a straight white male without disabilities who would call himself a Christian. No wonder your attitude on discrimination is what it is. Have you ever been discriminated against in your life?

Guessing ? Hardly if you have seen the pictures of me, and John! EVeryone has experienced some sort of discrimination in life, but does that mean it was a violation of the Constitution? I have the right to own property, but have restrictions on my own land, is that Unconstitutional and discrimination too? I may not qualify to do the same thing the next door neighbor can do, is that Unconstitutional and discrimination? Feeling one way and it actually being that way, in terms of discrimination, are not always the same thing. Abuting properties can have different zoning, and each may not be able to do the same things.

My attitude about discrimination is we are a nation that recognizes real discrimination and real disability, and also a nation that fabricates a lot of it. My attitude, as you are so condesending about discribing, has 30 years of experience in a Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action employer, where I could write a book, on the abuses of fabricated discrimination claims. The kinds of labor disputes, lawsuits, claims of racial discrimination, stress related medical leaves resulting, sexual harrassment claims, its just appauling. Those on the shop floors who know the players, work with them everyday, know the scams they are pulling, and all you can do is shake you head, grin and bare it. It makes you sick to see it, while everyday you do your job, watching some people get away with murder. They know how to play the game in these kinds of companies, and get away with it, because these companies pay them big settlements, otherwise they can loose major contracts.

greeney2 wrote:

at1with0 wrote:My ultimate goal here is to figure out if belief in God is a delusion.

AGain it does not fit the criteria of our own link defining delusion. Your example of detonating the sun clearly is not a voice they all hear.

Sometimes beliefs about God may be delusions and some may not be delusions.

at1with0 wrote:I read the link; trust me, I am well aware of what is considered delusional.

Doesn't seem like it trying to compare detonating the sun and people hearing Love they neighbor. Which is rational?

I did no such comparison.

at1with0 wrote:The question is: when do you know you've crossed the line into delusion regarding beliefs surrounding God, whether that delusion is psychiatric or not.

Depends on if the Phyciatrist is an Atheist or not.

Wrong.

at1with0 wrote:Thus gays feeling persecuted is NOT a paranoia-type delusion as you suggested it is.

I'm suggesting the feeling of persecution is faked and not a true feeling, they are all jumping on the bandwaggon, and do not really feel this way, playing the race card and pretending.

No one is playing the race card. Tell me something: is the ban on gay marriage imaginary? If not, then gays are not falsely perceiving persecution.

at1with0 wrote:As an aside, I'm guessing you're a straight white male without disabilities who would call himself a Christian. No wonder your attitude on discrimination is what it is. Have you ever been discriminated against in your life?

Guessing ? Hardly if you have seen the pictures of me, and John! EVeryone has experienced some sort of discrimination in life, but does that mean it was a violation of the Constitution? I have the right to own property, but have restrictions on my own land, is that Unconstitutional and discrimination too? I may not qualify to do the same thing the next door neighbor can do, is that Unconstitutional and discrimination? Feeling one way and it actually being that way, in terms of discrimination, are not always the same thing. Abuting properties can have different zoning, and each may not be able to do the same things.

How about I say that you can't marry a woman because you are a man. Is that consistent with the Constitution?

How about if I tell you I herd the same voice, "Tell At1 to detonate the sun today, he should leave ASAP".

You are not making any case at all about delusions, and believing in God.

On gay marriage:

If the Constitution, the law of the land, strictly forbids these unions then why are we seeing these laws passed now? The only reference source quoted when these laws come up are the Bible, which last I checked was not a binding legal document like the Koran over in the middle east. Our country wasn't setup that way yet politicians constantly lean on scripture as a basis for their legislation. We have laws in place to protect from bigotry and hate crimes but you get a free pass once religious freedoms are invoked.

On the reverse side of the coin, you have provocateurs like the lesbian woman who cut herself and burned her own home to the ground to make her claim of hate crimes done to her more believable. Actions like this and the laws that usually follow remind me of that road to hell and the good intentions it is paved with.

On the overuse of discrimination claims filed in the work place:

I wholeheartedly agree, as I've witnessed it many times. Thanks to Liberals, or the "there ought-ta be a law" crowd as I like to call them, employers are trapped into hiring unfavorable candidates for fear of being sued for no other reason than because they can. Getting rid of these people? That's even harder. I've personally seen it myself, people who sue for discrimination because they were passed over for a promotion. Even if the other candidate is the same ethnicity, they'll sue for sexual discrimination then. If the other candidate is the same gender as well, they'll sue for weight discrimination. Yes, really. Personally witnessed it.

Once these scumbags get their desired settlement and the position they didn't actually deserve, they are set for life. They can't be terminated for any reason for fear of being sued yet again. That's when the real discrimination by these people begins. It's a totally corrupted power trip that ensues with these people, because they do hold power over others. The fear of being labeled a racist or being called up on discrimination charges ruins people's lives and businesses. The majority of the time it is for a single person's own selfish gain. It's disgusting, it's vile and it's real.

When people like this get into a position of power in a company, good employees usually get axed or driven to quit by these people in favor of their buddies and employees that will sleep with them. This country has so many laws and loopholes that the scumbags game the system and good citizens suffer for it.

As for the God delusion:

I can't call someone delusional for their belief in a deity. I don't see where I have the right to make that claim. I'll leave that up to the Liberals. I do take issue when someone claims their deity told them kill, mutilate and hump their coworkers corpse every Thursday at 11:30 A.M. while facing East and humming mary had a little lamb.