The Black Vault

Well said, greeney.

greeney2 wrote:I've been pretty vocal about being against same sex marriage, becasue to a Catholic Marriage is a Sacrament, even know I was not married in the Catholic Church is it still my belief, and therefore against it. Born again Christians do not believe this, and if anything are not accepting of Catholics at all, overall. I have expressed other reasons that have nothing to do with religion, nor about caring about Gay people behind closed doors. But nobody is forcing any law that mandates any church to violate its own doctrine. Nobody is forcing you or I, to worship other Gods.

I think you realize that no one is trying to force religions to open up to gay marriage (at least the mainstream anti-ban people are not trying to force that). Catholics can still not wed gay couples. But there is no reason other than one line in the Bible (Leviticus) to prohibit gay marriage in a civil context. I don't buy into the "sex is a sin unless children can be produced" notion.

I am glad you are seeing parallels to women suffrage, racial suffrage, Jim Crowe laws, etc., because banning gay marriage is tantamount to discrimination of these kinds.

I agree totally about the concept of sin regarding the activity of 2 people married or otherwise, where child is not produced, or concieving is prevented from happening. The moral issue of adultry, is another redefined rule of the times IMHO.

Clearly OT has his own beliefs, which are his right to live according to his religious beliefs. God knows that sticking to your standards for anyone can be a long lonley road. What is right or wrong for him in his own mind, or for myself, is an indvidual choice, as well as choosing to not believe in any of it as an atheist.

The decision for allowing Gay Marriage is going to happen, according to our laws and our Constitution, which has nothing to do with our reliegious beliefs on one hand, but everything to do with it on the other. Where the government made a mistake was requiring a licence for it, but if they didn't there would be no control over proof of identity, which is the real reason for it. To document name changes!

The State is not preforming a religious rite, they are preforming a name change. I'm not even real sure why the State includes any kind of marriage ceremorny at all, where vows are exchanged, what is the purpose other than the 2 people wanting to make it more meaningful, make it something festive. However, a religious ceremony still must file the nessesary licence, makes you ask the question "why do you need permission to get married", if liberty is a freedom. Thats another question!

Greeny2,

I am against same sex marriage because it puts to much emphasis on sex... and sexuality. I think this is wrong..hetero and homo both.

I have stated that I know heteros for whom I don't approve of their relationships married or not because this is their main template or Identification. I think people are more than this fingerprint of sex and sexuality...much more.

I think it is a cheap and transient fingerprint or index by which to demand respect and approval..hetero or homo...both.

I also don't think much of government intellects who would make merchandise of these people for votes around this template of sex and sexuality. I think such an government is practicing whoredom....they are willing to live deliciously with such...or whatever is the next crisis by which they can get votes while making merchandise of people.

Notice this has nothing to do with your templates going back in a time warp technique to slavery, women's suffrage et al.. and other guilt manipulation methods...PC.



Religion covers a myriad of conducts ...for which government is now trying to control and regulate....thus meaning individual freedoms and liberties will be at stake. In the end..it will be tantamount to a loss of both privacy and property...the very foundation of this nation.
Government in imposing it's new religion on the people is now doing it not only to the states..but to the people in these states who do not want to live according to this new Talmudic doctrine and religion overlaid on their liberties. This new guilt template...this new PC. These people and states want to think for themselves.

They do not look on the states of California and New York as being the natural default settings for all of America in the states in between these two. They too will think for themselves...according to their beliefs and their religion. They consider California and New York to be "Flyover" states..not the other way around. These people and states are also not interested in the non standards of the world. Ishmaelite standards.

These states are also to the point where they are not looking to Washington DC for leadership. They are beginning to understand that they are on their own. Looking to Washington DC for the cup of the wine of whoredom/fornication is not getting it. They have been sold a product which is not that advertised.

In this manner Greeny2...Washington is indeed making the states and the people tow the line against their religious beliefs and against the Republican form of Government which is supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution.

In violation of both the 9th and 10th Amendment.

They are also going against article 1 section 10 of the same Constitution..in not issuing gold and silver coin in/for tender in payment of debt.

Our freedoms and liberties are dependent on a government with fiscal responsibility. Non fiscal responsibility is how the government on the federal level buys their way into everything and anything. At the same time they are corrupting the value of every and anything in this society and economic structure...by inflation/depreciation of the currency..purchasing power. We do not have a government with fiscal responsibility ..Republican or Democrat...both.

What this means to people who know about a system of unjust weights and measures..a measure great and a measure small in our bag ...is that our days will not be long in the land the Lord hath given us.

There are those of us who think that this path or trail..including the religious whoredom and religious substitution is intentional..not per chance..but deliberate...and towards/for a goal.

Thanks,
Orangetom

P. S.

This is actually a good point and not one often taught or spoken to people about how things were or are done.

The State is not preforming a religious rite, they are preforming a name change. I'm not even real sure why the State includes any kind of marriage ceremorny at all, where vows are exchanged, what is the purpose other than the 2 people wanting to make it more meaningful, make it something festive. However, a religious ceremony still must file the nessesary licence, makes you ask the question "why do you need permission to get married", if liberty is a freedom. Thats another question!

Why indeed to you need permission of the state to get married?? My understanding of a marriage is that a groom or a grooms family got approval of the brides family and terms were settled and "He took her unto wife." It was that simple.

Licenses are a contract between the state and the people getting married ..where the state can now control every facet of the marriage under constantly changing laws and regulations down to the children and inheritance after death.
This is not done in Common Law Marriages where there is no contract with the state. The Amish come to mind here.

I suspect that this is why there is coming a quiet war against the Amish and other such institutions who live and dwell outside the state jurisdictions. Governments generally do not want their "Subjects" to know about these conditions.

But you point is a good one...why do we need permission to get married??

Orangetom

orangetom1999 wrote:Greeny2,

I am against same sex marriage because it puts to [sic] much emphasis on sex... and sexuality. I think this is wrong..hetero and homo both.

Banning same sex marriage puts quite a bit of emphasis on sex.

I have stated that I know heteros for whom I don't approve of their relationships married or not because this is their main template or Identification. I think people are more than this fingerprint of sex and sexuality...much more.

I think it is a cheap and transient fingerprint or index by which to demand respect and approval..hetero or homo...both.

By that rationale, no one should be allowed to marry. You haven't identified something that is fundamentally different between same sex and opposite sex marriages.

Notice this has nothing to do with your templates going back in a time warp technique to slavery, women's suffrage et al.. and other guilt manipulation methods...PC.

What you call a guilt manipulation method I call an ANALOGY.

But you point is a good one...why do we need permission to get married??

Excellent question.

orangetom1999 wrote:I am against same sex marriage because it puts to much emphasis on sex... and sexuality. I think this is wrong..hetero and homo both.

Which comes from your religious beliefs, not everyone elses!

orangetom1999 wrote:Notice this has nothing to do with your templates going back in a time warp technique to slavery, women's suffrage et al.. and other guilt manipulation methods...PC.

Not at all, you do not think the time warp examples I gave were not real examples of enumerated rights implied in the 9th amendment? Woman suffrage was only one of an entire spectrem of womans rights violations, dominated by male Christians. If you see this all as guilt manipulation and not legitimate discrimination issues, you need to join the free world.

orangetom1999 wrote:In this manner Greeny2...Washington is indeed making the states and the people tow the line against their religious beliefs and against the Republican form of Government which is supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution.

No Washington, and many Supreme Court rulings have enforced the Constitution in many matters of discrimination, not just by religions but by the exclusion of many people, to be allowed the same rights as others. In our history, the discrimination that generated from so called God Fearing good Christians is pretty appauling.

orangetom1999 wrote:These people and states are also not interested in the non standards of the world. Ishmaelite standards.

AGain, is your standard the standard for everybody? More importanly the way a country should be ruled according to one religious base? Thats is how Islamic countries are.

Is OT against opposite-sex marriage for that reason too?

Is greeney now saying same-sex marriage is not unconstitutional?

If so, is that because he hurt my gay friend Disson8er's feelings?

America could suffer economic collapse or worse if same sex marriage becomes law...

http://arkwriter.hubpages.com/hub/abominationdesolation

“Abomination of desolation” simply means the human behavior of the people is such that it causes barrenness. Same sex marriage cannot reproduce children. Homosexuality is the "abomination of desolation" (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). The cities that practice homosexuality are so vile and loathesome to God that He would cause it to become desolate and uninhabited. There are only two cities mentioned in the entire Bible that God had destroyed because of their abominable sin of homosexuality, and that is Sodom and Gommorrah. "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" (2 Pet. 2:6) “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. “ (Jude 1:7)

It must come to pass. For in the last days, there shall be much wickedness; Man shall lay with man as he does with woman, and woman shall lay with woman as she does with man. The unbeliever will laugh as he/she degrades the sacred institution entrusted by God to wise men of old. There will be videos on Pornhub of it, as the homosexuals defiantly marry each other in exceedingly sexual style. This is but the fulfillment of ancient prophecy, and those who oppose same-sex marriage also oppose the Will of God. Woe unto the misguided believer who opposes the Lord, for He will cast you out along with the sinners who mocked His power.

at1with0,

Banning same sex marriage puts quite a bit of emphasis on sex.

This is not the point I was making at all. I disapprove of these groups because their main stock in trade is sex and sexuality. I also disapprove of heteros I know..married and not married who's same stock in trade is sex and sexuality.
I think people are more than this kind of shallowness.

I do not give respect nor approval to people on this single basis. And to demand it of others and then when you dont get it...does not justify lableing, and other vitriol against others. This is just plain dumb and also censorship.
You do not do well by becoming the thing you hate in others.

This is the same vitriol you see from many atheists..and it comes from the same source.

Whenever men try to declare their greatness...they must always need return to the baseness of sex and sexuality. History is replete with this "Illogic."

I am not speaking against sex and sexuality per se. I am stating that people are more than just this one fingerprint. Much much more.

And to demand respect and approval on this one singular identifier..or index is just plain stupid. But it is logic and reason...human logic and reason.

By that rationale, no one should be allowed to marry. You haven't identified something that is fundamentally different between same sex and opposite sex marriages.

You are misquoting or misrepresenting what I stated above..or you just dont get it. I most certainly have identified a fundamental fingerprint. I also said I dont approve of certain heteros for the same reason.

What you call a guilt manipulation method I call an ANALOGY.

It is not a good one. For you see the woman's movement ..just like the homosexual movement has gelled down to ...It's all about sex and sexuality.

Just like a talk show format. Take the sex and sexuality away..and you have no program. Do I need to take lie detector or DNA test on this one???

I'll take it a step further....take the drama away around sex and sexuality and you have no program again.

It is the same with the slavery issue. Drama. It is a crutch to put others on the defensive and censor them and their views though no one has been a slave in that sense for over a hundred years. Drama and censorship again.

I would venture to state that all these groups...the Homosexuals, the women's groups and the Slavery department are all being run and controlled at the top by the same people....and for and towards the same goal...votes and control.

Emotional control..for votes. They are puppets on a string...and are attempting to put us on the same strings. And by the responses here..it works well.
You can see them coming ...with predictability for you can see the body politic stroking these groups with drama and sexuality particularly before elections.
You can see it right now....taking place. Continued "Victimization Stroking" for votes.

Tiring, wolfie, and predictable. All three of these groups try to work guilt manipulation politics on the public. Which is why I say they are all controlled at the top by the same people and for the same purposes.

And some of the public are beginning to catch on and are speaking of it to others to awaken them.




DIss0n80r,

Is OT against opposite-sex marriage

I stated to at1with0 that I am against certain hetero relationships for the same reason..not all of them.

I had this conversation on line with a homosexual some years ago on ATS..and explained to him that people are so much more than sex and sexualty...and to my surprise he agreed with me. I was a but stunned because so many of them are disagreeagle and vitriolic on this topic. I was not quite prepared to have him agree with me and that he understood the point.

I find many heteros and also homosexuals have problems understanding the concept that people are more than sex and sexuality. To much public education/drama thinking going on in them.

I am not speaking against sex and sexuality per se...I am saying don't declare yourself dumb and ignorant by only having this one tool in your tool box of thinking and debate. Hetero or homo.

Sex and sexuality are not who or what we are...in toto.

Thanks,
Orangetom