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Postby at1with0 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:44 pm

That is actually what the 10th amendment implies.

On the federal level the only option would be a constitutional amendment. I think the government should be frying much bigger fish than this.
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Postby DIss0n80r » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:07 pm

Why should interracial couples have a special right to get married?
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:26 pm

at1with0 wrote:That is actually what the 10th amendment implies.

On the federal level the only option would be a constitutional amendment. I think the government should be frying much bigger fish than this.


What will probably evolve in time IMHO will relate more to the 9th amendment, which talks about enumerated rights, or rights not specifically mentions but are assumed as basic human rights, and it also applies to propertry and other things. States set many requirements for many things. In this case the framers never imagines same sex marriage in the 1700's, or 1866 when the 14th amendment was adopted. Enumerated rights never even considered same sex marriage. What will probably happen will be like gender assignment surgury became a new consideration in the definition of enumerated rights, probably same sex marriage will probably go the same way. Once they extend the idea of same sex marriage as a new enumerated right, the states will have to follow suit. As it is now even California has overturned the law defining marriage law.

These are our laws, in a free society, that gives us many freedoms. Laws change with times, and this will undoubtly change. It may not even take a Constitutional Amendment, it may just take a landmark case that results in including same sex marriage as a enumerated right included already in the 9th amendment.

Religously, the question is totally different, and will be another conflict between our laws, and what most people believe are against their religion, commandments from God, and regarded as sins. Abortion is one of those issues. The death penalty is one of those issues.

Laws were passed to limit Mormons from having multiple wives. After they declare limiting same sex marriage, they are going to have to turn back the clock, and allow multiple spouses IMHO.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:51 am

Shadowcass,

You have made a long and interesting post concerning the Olde and New Testaments but you missed out on the central theme..in the whole affair in order to justify secular beliefs and practices in which Believers do not want to get caught up into.

For the Believer is to know the Olde Testament and why it does not apply to us. In order to know this you have to have read and understood the Olde Testament...for the Olde Testament is our school master to teach us what came before.

There is one thing clear from the Olde Testament to the New Testament...God's people are not to be like the people surrounding them or the nations surrounding them. The very clear track record is that this was one of the abominations of the Children of Israel...that they did and engaged in the practices of the Nation surrounding them. As a result they began to worship other gods.

One of the practices of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel was rampant runaway sexuality of all kinds...particularly around the festivals. This can be found with some digging but it will be totally avoided in most history books.
I began to learn of this in a book circa 1912...titled The Two Babylons by Alexander Hyslop. This , of course, lead me to other books or texts on this topic line and as a result opened another line of thought and understanding concerning the nations surrounding Ancient Israel and also the nations in which the Believers lived and dwelled in the time of the early Church.

These people of the other nations around Ancient Israel had integrated into their religions the very practices daily which we are attempting to return today in our intelligence and enlightenment. Drugs, sex, and all kinds of animal base behaviors...on which the God of the Bible calls an abomination..right down to the sacrifice of their children ..and often the first born. The rites of the god Kemish of the Moabites is one example and there are others of which public education totally avoids.

These are the abominations in which the Children of Israel got caught up into ..the very practices of the nations surrounding them...in worshipping strange gods in the groves and high places in the daytime and in the valleys at night.

These were the bunny clubs of those days and sex and sexuality was and still is an important facet of these other religions.

This is why a Believer who knows the Word does not define themselves by their sex or sexuality...ever.

For this is not who or whom they are.

Yet here we have people trying to demand that other accept and approve of them on this very basis and then if they do not get labeled, accused, and censored if they do not.

What I am saying here is that Gods people do not define themselves by this worldly "Ishmaelite" position but by the God who lives, breathes, and dwells in them daily. They reject the worldly position. For God's people the position is of the line of "Issac" and not Ishmael.

And this is the very lesson of all that stuff you posted on the previous page.

For the children of the bondwoman...shall not be heir with the children of the free woman

The lesson for those who can see hear and understand is that those of Ishmael and his children have entered the halls of academia and politics and are attempting to build a world in which the children of the bondwoman..."shall" be heir with the children of the free woman.
And today they are attempting to come out in the open with it and run roughshod over the children of Issac who want nothing to do with this template of Ishmael.

Our leadership is today staunchly of Ishmael for political lucre and most do not know it...nor do they want it defined so by the public.

In every avenue of public and private life..the Ishmaelites are attempting to turn the government/people over to their gods.
The gods of runaway rampant sexuality and all the other baggage which comes with or attends thus.

For they want to build a world ..a utopia..a nirvana...here on this earth in which the children of the bondwoman shall be heir with the children of he free woman.

This is the ultimate goal...always has been and always will be. And they are willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to achieve this goal.

But for now..they must keep everyone and anyone ignorant of it's workings and central theme. And sex and sexuality are a very important part of this Ishmaelite program. Not so with the Believers after the line of Issac.

For those of Issac and His Seed know that peopel are much more than sex and sexuality.

Sex and sexuality has always and historical been central in the workings of this other religion of Ishmael...along with drugs and sacrifice.

What is of interest to me in your long dissertation on the Olde and New Testaments is that you totally miss out on this concept which is right in there in your speaking of Galatians Chapter 4. All the other previous chapters...2 & 3 are leading up to the conclusion of Chapter 4...

The children of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the children of the free woman.

Also Shadowcass..this is the apostle Paul quoting the Olde Testament and showing how some parts of it still apply here in New Testament times. What does not apply is the Levitical Law...all that stuff is of bondage..which is Ishmael and we are not under such. For this stuff is Mt Sinai in Arabia...corresponding to the bondwoman and her son...bondage.

So too with the practices of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel...bondage....of which we as believers are to have nothing with which to do.

For while we are not under the Olde Testament Law...we are still a peculiar people...not like the world surrounding us.

Thanks,
Orangetom
Last edited by orangetom1999 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:05 am

Greeny2,

Religously, the question is totally different, and will be another conflict between our laws, and what most people believe are against their religion, commandments from God, and regarded as sins. Abortion is one of those issues. The death penalty is one of those issues.

Laws were passed to limit Mormons from having multiple wives. After they declare limiting same sex marriage, they are going to have to turn back the clock, and allow multiple spouses IMHO.


What I find interesting is that many people of intellect today do not like the Apostle Paul. For he said to much in the New Testament and his epistles. Educated peoples of enlightenment and illumination today are attempting to find many ways around his epistles in order to bring us back into Olde Testament Bondage...under the guise of this very Illumination and Enlightenment.

We are seeing this very thing take place right in front of us as government attempts to enforce their Ishmaelite positions on all of us in order to extend their power or political lucre ..to maintain office, power, and control over a people. In short ...they are attempting to get us to worship other gods. And I find that many of our ministers are in on the scam by not teaching their flocks the "Whole council of God." They have left their flocks unarmoured...undefended...unprotected..unSalty.

They are attempting to make us like the nations which surrounded Ancient Israels and to rejoice in the abominations of these nations and into which Ancient Israel's leadership got caught up...knowingly or unknowingly.
I believe that at the highest levels...they entered into this other religion knowingly. I think they know this today as well.


Multiple wives is also a template of the Nations which surrounded Ancient Israel and for which Paul gives guidance in the New Testament... Husband of One Wife.

I also don't think this is a template for which most women of today would be willing to go along. Think this through. Women as a whole are smarter than this today....not so with men.

Thanks,
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Postby at1with0 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:55 am

So... OT... no rejoinder/response regarding the issue of the irrelevance of our choices to our ultimate fate?
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:50 am

at1with0 wrote:So... OT... no rejoinder/response regarding the issue of the irrelevance of our choices to our ultimate fate?



Ahh...at1with0...thanks for reminding me. I believe you are referring to this from page 16 of this thread by you??

Well if it is not up to us, then it doesn't matter what choices we make in life to do this or that. It doesn't matter if you try your best to be law-abiding or righteous or altruistic. Especially if God doles out reward and punishment absolutely arbitrarily with no regard to what the person has done (or not done) with their life. It's a very appealing position since it removes all responsibility from a person.

I also absolutely don't agree that all of us deserve hell and damnation but it is nice to see that gays aren't singled out for being gay. There are those among us who are truly selfless and altruistic and they are less deserving of hell and damnation than those who are selfish and have criminal tendencies. You're saying that mother Theresa (or Jesus for that matter) and Hitler are equally deserving of hell and damnation."


If so...I will respond to this quote of yours above.

Believers behave the way they do or do not do because of the new heart which is put into them by His divine and absolute will...not theirs..but by this good conscience towards God...they do not do the things they did in their previous life before they were..."Reborn." For now they know the difference.
As to responsibility...one of the responsibilities of a Believer is to commune with the Brethren. If one behaves badly they will put you out...or get shed of you so as not to mix leaven with unleaven..new wine with olde. In this they are often Salty.

In short..they will judge you...as to whether God dwells in you...or you dwelling in this world and the things of this world.
By a good conscience a Believer learns to put aside much of the things of this world in which we used to dwell and take great pride and boasting.

As to God doling out out punnishment..indeed..He does. Remember that a highly chosen and respected person like King David...was punished severely and lost several of his children as a result of his sins. This was to David a brutal punishment. For King David was also a murderer..as was Moses..who had killed the Egyptian. All is not as we would think in the flesh that it is.

Gays are not particularly singled out for begin gay..but for defining themselves as do the nations which surround them..for taking on the appearance of the world. Not what God wants for us. But in the end..if God chose them out of this world..they will be going to Heaven..not on the merits or demerits of anything they have done..but because when they appear before God...God sees the Blood of Christ covering their sins. We are saved by Blood...and not any blood..but by the Blood of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins.

And yes..this applies to Mother Teresa too....correct..as well as Adolph Hitler..all worthy of damnation and hell.

Once again...God chooses who are His..and for His purposes..not our purposes.

Who does that mean ..is going to Heaven or Salvation....?

That is none of my business..nor yours. I have no idea...That is totally up to God. Any preacher properly and well versed in the Word knows this. If they do not teach it..they are teaching another gospel and another christ. And many of them are doing exactly this. Another word/gospel and another christ.

As the Word states.. "not of works ..lest any man should boast."

For if it is of works..what difference does it make what happened on the cross??

Even many Believers seem to miss out on this point.

You will hear many ministers preach...God did this..God did that ...Jesus did this and that...now it is all up to you!!

I have heard them do this over and over and over...in their long preaching..then end it with...'Its all up to you."

Now days such a closing statement wakes me right up when I hear it and I quickly make note of it.

What a pitiful god to have to depend on us..if it is all up to us. I hear this on many of the television preachers. They make lots of money on this "feel good doctrine."


It was and is never up to us. This is what is meant by Sovereign Grace.

Hope this helps,
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Postby greeney2 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:17 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:We are seeing this very thing take place right in front of us as government attempts to enforce their Ishmaelite positions on all of us in order to extend their power or political lucre ..to maintain office, power, and control over a people. In short ...they are attempting to get us to worship other gods. And I find that many of our ministers are in on the scam by not teaching their flocks the "Whole council of God." They have left their flocks unarmoured...undefended...unprotected..unSalty.

They are attempting to make us like the nations which surrounded Ancient Israels and to rejoice in the abominations of these nations and into which Ancient Israel's leadership got caught up...knowingly or unknowingly.
I believe that at the highest levels...they entered into this other religion knowingly. I think they know this today as well.


The problem with your thinking is that even know we are a Christian/Judeo based society, we are also a free nation, with a Constitution that grants these freedoms. One of which is freedom of expression, and freedom of religious beliefs, or to have different beliefs, or to have none at all. Our government is the people, not a religion, we are our own government, we have free elections and free to express ourselves, vote and change laws by a process. God help us, if we become a nation that does not allow us these freedoms, and people everyday have spearheaded movements, to change the ideas that have affected the "few: in our society. What use to be unherd of, has become something we have to add to our 9th amendment enumerated rights. I'm sure you can name a few without a problem, forinstance the days when if you were a Negro, you could not use a white only drinking fountain.

We are also guarenteed that in our society, everyone can believe in their own religion and the concepts of their God, and all of the Bible, which is your belief, is totally different from others. EVen if their religion was NONE, taking religion completly out of the equasion, they are free to believe their own moral decisions in life, be it gender reassignment, sexual orintation, same sex marriage, its going to all fall under unspecified but assumed "enumerated rights". The persuasion of one or even all religions that may disagree, makes it even more of a Constitutional right, becasue one does not have to ascribe to any religious philosophy, we have to allow others their rights to be atheists, agnostics, and have zero religious beliefs.

OT our laws are becoming more and more liberal, have evolved into a society of accepting almost anything, and a mindset of thinking "nothing is wrong with what I do, if its not hurting you". They also demand our laws reflect this, and that old ideas and laws, were slanted to a rigid religiously guided enactment of such laws, so its a fine line. On one hand we are a Nation under God, but not allowed to force anyone to believe in God. Our society is founded on it, is still the majoriety, but our rights and laws must conform to those who do not believe, or have a non Christian/Judeo mindset of morality. OUr polititians are not teaching or forcing us into worshiping other Gods, our society has evolved into a different way of thinking, and accepting other concepts of God. They say why should I march off to a war governments cause? Why should I have to believe what I do privatly is wrong, it doesn't hurt you? Why should I have to hide my sexual orination if I am free? Why shouldn't the old taboo's be enumerated rights?

If anything OT, the government has not tried to have us worship other Gods, they have always tried to make you worship in the parameters, of what they precieve as God. All written in a era, that these issues were unherd of, just as the right to bare arms never imagined Ak47's and 30 clip 9MM's. The never envisioned hard core porn, and certainly never imagined removing your manhood to become a woman. People want those restrictions removed, just like they changed to idea of Whites Only bathrooms, and ride in the back of the bus.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:27 am

Greeny2,

The problem with your thinking is that even know we are a Christian/Judeo based society, we are also a free nation, with a Constitution that grants these freedoms.


Indeed Greeny 2...we are indeed supposed to be a free nation. However..some people who have not totally "fallen" for the brew know that some of us by government decree..by intellect. by reason, by logic are more free than others...and on the public purse. Or put another way ..some of us are being put into Ishmaelite bondage for some political purposes and made to pay for others....with our work and our risk taking.

This is being done scientifically...by social engineering..by guilt politics...by skillful and stealthy maneuvering without most knowing the nature of what is going on around them...just as happened with the Ancient Hebrews.

Someone carefully and skillfully overlaid another Talmudic doctrine over the top of the Law of Moses and began observing this new Law..as if it was the law of Moses when it was no such thing.

And this is skillfully happening here amongst us today..and in like manner ..to the destruction of our people...Talmudic rules at play to overlay the law of the land with this new rules or justifications based on perceived or imagined and carefully cultivated " emotional outrage." This followed by the blame game and guilt conditioning.

This is not the law of the land..but another law. The law of Ishmaelites. Of Bondage..with her children.

Tax breaks for the Rich.

The War on Women

Chick Fil A

and the list goes on... Mostly PC dogmas.

Mostly centered around devout "Victimization Doctrines and Dogmas"



One of which is freedom of expression, and freedom of religious beliefs, or to have different beliefs, or to have none at all.


To those who can see, hear, and understand..this one is getting ready to go by the wayside as a point in history and replaced with the new Ishmaelite dogma....censorship. Only authorized, sanctioned beliefs conforming to the changing winds will be authorized...ie...PC. You are in California..I should not have to tell you any of this.

For the two states which claim the most freedom and liberty ..by consumer ethos...are the most restrictive across the board..New York and California....followed by Washington DC. Particularly in the PC arena.


God help us, if we become a nation that does not allow us these freedoms, and people everyday have spearheaded movements, to change the ideas that have affected the "few: in our society.


We are moving rapidly now down this very road....to change the ideas which have affected the "Many" in our society..by default..by these new Talmudic laws overlaying the conscience of many ..emotionally..to get approval to carry out the new Talmudic doctrines planned for the future.

There is no other factor which will determine the economic and thereby the physical prosperity of a nation ...outside of their religious beliefs. When the religion of a people can no longer hold the government accountable ..the nation goes into decline..and in the end..rapidly. History is replete with this evidence..but it will never be told as to what it is ...in the time of science and enlightenment attempting to hide/conceal this from us.

As they themselves state...

I shall ever conceal and never reveal..not by mark, step, sign or inscription.


The Ishmaelites.


Our politicians are not teaching or forcing us into worshiping other Gods, our society has evolved into a different way of thinking, and accepting other concepts of God.



This is the Talmudic doctrine at work. Going after other gods...privily ..without many even being aware of it. And in the end ..it will bear this fruit of the other gods...bondage..economic and physical bondage.

If anything OT, the government has not tried to have us worship other Gods, they have always tried to make you worship in the parameters, of what they perceive as God.


Wow!! Are you thinking through what you are posting here??? For it is obvious to those on meat and not on milk that our government has gone after strange gods...gods which our fathers knew not. To the gods on the other side of the flood. And this can be easily demonstrated to those who know of it's existence.
Government is not god...and yet historically..even by secular records this is precisely the trend line of all governments given enough time...gods we can see...cradle to grave behavior modification by governments. Absolute power in the hands of men.

Remember Greeny2 what the French government did to their own people..by logic..by reason, by enlightenment/absolute power in the hands of Enlightened men. They killed off 20 per cent of the French people by executions en mass. 1 in 5 Frenchmen went to the guillotine by their own government. By their own people...in frenzy ..seeking to establish their own righteousness.

Remember what I have quoted in previous posts about Democide in the last 100 years of Enlightened men..men of science, reason, and logic.

I do not see our government as being any more enlightened or intelligent with their divide and conquer doctrines they are promoting daily. Our own government is following and ancient tried and true technique in this. Once they break free of the bonds of the People's religion ...by grooming the people in the religion of this world..there is no limit to their depravity. And history bears this out...over and over and over. And particularly in times of Enlightenment.

All governments...because of the nature of fallen men...tend towards absolute power in the hands of men...demigods here on this earth. And history bears this out. Today they just use or misuse science to help carry it out. Science has become the new religion to these men and they use/misuse it on us daily without many of us being aware of its use or misuse.

I am not speaking of anything new here Greeny2. For this is as olde as the history of men themselves. For we have made ourselves gods you see.

Thanks,
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:56 am

Thankfully for all of us, one of our freedoms is religion, to worship or not, and believe in whatever is your idea of God. All I have herd you do is deny that freedom, and all you ever say, relates everything down to a very narrow window of thinking, which is your religious beliefs only. You have Ishmaelite bondage on the brain! What about Fred, or Joe, or Sally, who have a completly different way of belief religiously, or none at all? Is this about your religion or about the freedom of it? That in addition to many other rights, historically have never been issues, but are now. You said a lot, but not one time touched on what our Constitution gives us in terms of religous freedom, and enumerated Rights of the 9th amendment.

I've been pretty vocal about being against same sex marriage, becasue to a Catholic Marriage is a Sacrament, even know I was not married in the Catholic Church is it still my belief, and therefore against it. Born again Christians do not believe this, and if anything are not accepting of Catholics at all, overall. I have expressed other reasons that have nothing to do with religion, nor about caring about Gay people behind closed doors. But nobody is forcing any law that mandates any church to violate its own doctrine. Nobody is forcing you or I, to worship other Gods.

Lets take any Gay issue out of the conversation, and just refer to enumerated rights, or basic rights that do not need to be named, they are assumed. The right to use a public drinking fountain, or use a bathroom not for your race, being blocked from living in certain neighborhoods or renting an apartment, where to enroll your child in school. The discrimination other ethnic groups have lived with. Anti Semetic discrimination. Basic human rights to enjoy the same borders of this country equally! Sorry to say that the violations of more freedoms, and human rights, have been from those who were supose to be the most moral in our society. What is more "Bible Belt" than the deep south, and mid west? Tell me what God Fearing, Forgiving Christians were the ones telling a black person to pee in their pants thats our toilet, or go to the rear of the bus where you belong, and not allow a black child to learn with other white children. They did this with a Bible in one hand, and in our lifetime. Makes you ashamed to be either White or of Christian belief. These are people enduring indignities from people worshiping the same God as they do.

I could not disagree more with your idea Washington is trying to make us worship other Gods, or we are in Ishmaelite bondage. You are free to think that way, but as bad as our system seems sometimes, we redefine or clarify what our freedoms are about. All you have to do is look back 50 years for events I discribed, or 100 years when women could not vote, or be seen smoking a cigarette in public. Pretty shameful it took us almost 100 to figure out owning humans was wrong, and 150 years to figure out woman should be able to vote. I guess if you refer to the ancient days of the Bible, you would probably find why these things were never considered wrong.
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