The Black Vault

While growing up, I was as straight as an arrow but still felt sympathetic to the homosexuals who were hated upon by thumpers using the Bible to justify their hatred. I thought to myself, there's no way God doesn't love homosexuals and then I read in the Bible that homosexuality is an "abomination" unto God. That...was the last straw.

at1with0 wrote:While growing up, I was as straight as an arrow but still felt sympathetic to the homosexuals who were hated upon by thumpers using the Bible to justify their hatred. I thought to myself, there's no way God doesn't love homosexuals and then I read in the Bible that homosexuality is an "abomination" unto God. That...was the last straw.

I think sympathy is a natural response towards anyone who is the target of hatred from somebody else. I don't believe all Bible thumpers are haters. I do believe there are those who use the Bible for their own purposes. In my opinion, it is slightly different from your take. If God considers homosexuality a sin, then the homosexual is a sinner. God's response to sinners is this:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

qmark wrote:I think sympathy is a natural response towards anyone who is the target of hatred from somebody else. I don't believe all Bible thumpers are haters. I do believe there are those who use the Bible for their own purposes. In my opinion, it is slightly different from your take. If God considers homosexuality a sin, then the homosexual is a sinner. God's response to sinners is this:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

How much of a sacrifice was it, knowing he would resurrect and have eternal life--for a fact?

Hardball!

Who is more heroic: Superman who can't die running into a burning building or the mortal firefighter running into a burning building?

DIss0n80r wrote:Hardball!

Not hardball at all....watch and listen!!!



at1with0 wrote...

How much of a sacrifice was it, knowing he would resurrect and have eternal life--for a fact?

So you deserve sacrafice on your own terms and if you dont get it ...you deserve an attitude..because you are sitting on the only one in town??? Or you will sacrifice and save yourself??

The Belief and understanding is that what would be our condition if we got what we verily deserve?? All of us.

Thanks,
Orangetom

orangetom1999 wrote:
at1with0 wrote...

How much of a sacrifice was it, knowing he would resurrect and have eternal life--for a fact?

So you deserve sacrafice on your own terms and if you dont get it ...you deserve an attitude..because you are sitting on the only one in town??? Or you will sacrifice and save yourself??

The Belief and understanding is that what would be our condition if we got what we verily deserve?? All of us.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Answering a question with questions.......Try again. This time actually answering. How can qmark say Christ died for us when Christ knew for a fact that his death would only be temporary (three days to be exact) and that he would with 100% confidence ascend to heaven (whatever that means)? Now what I would think a thoughtful Christian's response might include the torture Christ endured just prior to his crucifixion. There is a huge difference between what Christ underwent and what an American POW faces in a foreign stockade. Christ knew the pain would be temporary, maybe a few days for the worst of it, while that POW has to undergo that incessantly (in principle) and there is no hope of there being an end to it. If I knew for a fact that my death would last for three days and then I would ascend to heaven, I would do everything in my power to start that chain of events.

btw, there is little correlation between what we get and what we deserve. Free will is a bitch.

At1with0 wrote...

Answering a question with questions.......Try again. This time actually answering. How can qmark say Christ died for us when Christ knew for a fact that his death would only be temporary (three days to be exact) and that he would with 100% confidence ascend to heaven (whatever that means)? Now what I would think a thoughtful Christian's response might include the torture Christ endured just prior to his crucifixion. There is a huge difference between what Christ underwent and what an American POW faces in a foreign stockade. Christ knew the pain would be temporary, maybe a few days for the worst of it, while that POW has to undergo that incessantly (in principle) and there is no hope of there being an end to it. If I knew for a fact that my death would last for three days and then I would ascend to heaven, I would do everything in my power to start that chain of events.

btw, there is little correlation between what we get and what we deserve. Free will is a bitch.

Qmark can say that because in His earthly ministry Jesus the Christ for Remission of sins had a earthly body..just as did and do any of us. He felt all the sensations we feel..including pain and sorrow....joy and elation...and of course suffering.

As to his death being temporary....that is the Hope for all those who Believe...those He chose. That we well be destined to live and dwell with Him in the New Jerusalem...one made without hands. To those who know ...those on meat and not still on milk....this earth is not our home. It is only a temporary place.

At1with0...you are one of the more intelligent and informed posters on here. I am a bit taken back that you seem not to know this pattern and understanding. I posted on the assumption that you understood this about Belief and also meat and not milk. My bad here. My apologies for assuming incorrectly.

As to your last statement..about getting what we deserve...it is not free will per se which is a bitch..but life itself on this sinful earth is a bitch and we were told it was going to be so because of the sweat of our brow...in our lives.
It has nothing to do with free will...it would be this way with or without free will. Meat and not milk.

As to this...

If I knew for a fact that my death would last for three days and then I would ascend to heaven, I would do everything in my power to start that chain of events.

This is not very intelligent at1with0..but it is logical and reasonable....to those on milk and not meat..It makes me dissappointed in your ability to reason. It is very Egyptian in its nature...where eternity is everything and life here is little.
As if suicide is preferred...by logic and reason.

What about our offspring?? We have an obligation ( Or do we if we are just a sack of chemicals???) to get them ready for this world and the next...in the physical realm as well as the spiritual realm.
It comes across as if..."Here's to me..I got mine ..to bad about everyone else."
I like to think you can do better than this...much better.



Thanks,
Orangetom

orangetom1999 wrote:Qmark can say that because in His earthly ministry Jesus the Christ for Remission of sins had a earthly body..just as did and do any of us. He felt all the sensations we feel..including pain and sorrow....joy and elation...and of course suffering.

As to his death being temporary....that is the Hope for all those who Believe...those He chose. That we well be destined to live and dwell with Him in the New Jerusalem...one made without hands. To those who know ...those on meat and not still on milk....this earth is not our home. It is only a temporary place.

It wasn't a sacrifice at all, given that he knew he was going to live forever with God in heaven.

It would have been more of a sacrifice if he knew he could go to heaven yet chose to remain on earth for a few decades, teaching, leading. Rather than leave his followers to fill in the blanks with their garbage ideas.

at1, it was a sacrifice. He offered Himself up, as a blood offering, to cover the sins of the world. That is a text book definition of a sacrifice. The fact that He knew He would be resurrected is immaterial. Being sinless Himself and completely undeserving of punishment, He chose to suffer the penalty that all men deserve by taking on the sins of mankind. That penalty is separation from God. Jesus, the Son of God, had been in the presence of God throughout all eternity. I cannot even imagine how He must have felt when He cried out; About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ?" For the first time in all of eternity He felt separation, and you don't call that a sacrifice? You throw that in the trash as if it is nothing.

From the human level, and let's not forget that He was fully human as well, He was looking forward to an excruciatingly painful and humiliating death. A death that could have easily been avoided just by not being so in-your-face of the religious leaders. Rome did not care about Him. Yet, He chose to continue down that path knowing what had to be done. Humanly speaking, He sacrificed everything.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

That is sacrifice.