The Black Vault

qmark wrote:

humphreys wrote:I'm not copping out here, I truly believe evidence is key, so I cannot really answer. If you're asking me personally, it would be ridiculous for me to accept that as I have no evidence it is true, but if you personally have strong evidence that that is the case, then belief would be logical.

I don't want to derail the thread, but your response brought a question to mind. Since we are talking about the spiritual in these threads, is it logical to expect the type of evidence that the physical usually provides. Wouldn't it's evidence, by its very nature , be different.

In my opinion, we'd first need to define "spiritual", and then determine whether we can prove such a thing/concept exists, in a reliable manner (as an atheist, I doubt there is such a thing so the question would be moot). If we can't, then such a realm can only be accepted on faith.

What kind of evidence would you expect for the spiritual, and how could you validate it? One only needs to look at the vast differences in spiritual beliefs that exist, to see that determining truth based on things like faith, emotions, gut feelings and the like is never going to work accurately.

humphreys wrote:

qmark wrote:Could it be salvation through works?

Here is what I find interesting. Skeptics, or atheists, can ask all sorts of questions looking for that nugget to rip you apart but, when a question is asked of them, mum seems to be the word.

This is not fair, I don't think I've ever failed to answer a question asked of me.

You're getting as bad as greeney, I thought you were above these kinds of cheap shots. The thread has only been up a short time, you really should have waited before bashing atheists for not answering

I didn't even do anything and you take cheap shots at me!

In my opening question, I think we need to know where this question is all going, and in what context the senerio is intented. Seems to be a pretty unlikely and hypothetical extreme of an example, to make a blanket reply. Also want frrosted to explain further the Catholic perception is in his mind, as it pretains to this, and the answers? I think we all agree, we do not have a sufficient explanation of where this is going, and a senerio that is slightly "loaded" for some outcome.

greeney2 wrote:

humphreys wrote:

qmark wrote:Could it be salvation through works?

Here is what I find interesting. Skeptics, or atheists, can ask all sorts of questions looking for that nugget to rip you apart but, when a question is asked of them, mum seems to be the word.

This is not fair, I don't think I've ever failed to answer a question asked of me.

You're getting as bad as greeney, I thought you were above these kinds of cheap shots. The thread has only been up a short time, you really should have waited before bashing atheists for not answering

I didn't even do anything and you take cheap shots at me!

Your reputation precedes you!

frrostedman wrote:"It is ridiculous to believe that by just simply having faith and trust in Christ, you get a ticket to heaven. This means you could just go around murdering people by the dozens--by the thousands--and then just bend a knee, confess faith, ask forgiveness, and go to heaven. What a crock! In fact, it's a complete cop-out to suggest by doing something so easy, you could wash away all your 'sins.' "

It's ridiculous because it's a buncha primitive, manmade baloney. Designed so that anyone, no matter what their history is, can join their organization -- so it can grow, and grow, and grow...

More members = more tithing. It's a business that takes advantage of all the fools.

humphreys wrote:Frrosted, I cannot really agree or disagree because it depends on the evidence.

It would be ridiculous to believe in Quantum physics without evidence because to think a thing could be in two places at once is ridiculous. However, once the evidence for such a thing became apparent it is then ridiculous to not believe it.

I think it would be ridiculous to believe in your scenario without any evidence, because on the face of it it is very far-fetched and seems generally a horribly unfair system, but if you have overwhelming evidence that it is true, then it cannot be a ridiculous thing to believe.

I'm not copping out here, I truly believe evidence is key, so I cannot really answer. If you're asking me personally, it would be ridiculous for me to accept that as I have no evidence it is true, but if you personally have strong evidence that that is the case, then belief would be logical.

I have just entered the thread for the first time and have catching up to do. You're reading to much into it.

Do you agree or disagree that Christians like me place way to much ease and convenience on just having faith and trust in Christ, to have our sins forgiven?

greeney2 wrote:In my opening question, I think we need to know where this question is all going, and in what context the senerio is intented. Seems to be a pretty unlikely and hypothetical extreme of an example, to make a blanket reply. Also want frrosted to explain further the Catholic perception is in his mind, as it pretains to this, and the answers? I think we all agree, we do not have a sufficient explanation of where this is going, and a senerio that is slightly "loaded" for some outcome.

Since I am working so many hours and finding less and less time to frequent the threads, I'll go ahead and say what I planned to say in response. I fully expect that most skeptics agree--the Christian belief that salvation is achieve through faith and trust in Christ--is merely a copout, or at the very least an "easy out" for all the sins they've committed... example: someone can murder a thousand people and according to the bible, have faith and trust in Christ and voila, they get a ticket to heaven. Most if not all skeptics I know loathe such a concept and if nothing else, completely agree that it is a pathetic, cheap, easy way out.

My point is this:

If it's so easy, then ok--go ahead, skeptics. Have love for God--and faith in Christ and trust in His atoning work on the cross. I dare you. Go ahead. Do it. Snap your fingers and make yourself a Christian.

You see? It's not easy. You can't do it. In fact, a much easier way would be to try achieve all the rites and rituals found in the bible to "earn" your way into heaven. At least that way all you have to do is just follow instructions. But to have true faith and trust in Christ and Christ's work alone, it is not only difficult... but impossible for a skeptic to achieve. That's the point. The notion that it's an easy copout is completely false. Without the grace (gratia) of God, faith (fide) in Christ (Christos) alone is literally impossible. The utter and complete opposite of "easy."

That was my point.

Yes. It's very easy to say, "I have faith and trust in Christ." But saying it and meaning it are 2 completely different things, and on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as being achievable by your efforts alone.

Christians like me believe in salvation by grace alone, faith alone, through Christ alone. Seems easy on the surface, but, it's actually the most difficult thing anyone could (truly) do. No brag, just fact. I have no reason to boast because I don't deserve the credit for my faith. I couldn't have done it even if I tried... and without the grace of God, not only could I not achieve it, I couldn't want it enough to even try in the first place.

As far as Calvinism goes, it isn't easy or hard, it's either impossible or inevitable, depending on whether you win the heaven lottery or not. The worst part about it is its just about the worst system of justice imaginable.

humphreys wrote:As far as Calvinism goes, it isn't easy or hard, it's either impossible or inevitable, depending on whether you win the heaven lottery or not. The worst part about it is its just about the worst system of justice imaginable.

Calvinism has nothing to do with the system of justice you disagree with. The entire bible is centered on the transgressions of mankind, the just punishment for those transgressions, and the redemption of those who receive God's mercy and repent and reconcile. If you can imagine... key word "if" the perfection a Sovereign Creator would have in comparison to us, then you should be able to at least somewhat understand the huge disappointment that Creator would have with us. I mean, just look at us. Look at yourself. I highly doubt even you would dare declare that your behavior as a human being has been exemplary enough to warrant praise and reward from an almighty Creator.

I could not understand the disappointment in us, no.

He is all-powerful, and all-knowing, he knew how we'd turn out, he knew exactly how he made us. It's like he looked at his plans, saw we'd turn out in a way that disappointed him, created us anyway, and then punished us for fulfilling that plan.

Sorry, the whole thing is ridiculous to me.

I highly doubt even you would dare declare that your behavior as a human being has been exemplary enough to warrant praise and reward from an almighty Creator.

Do you think I have led a life worthy of eternal torture in hell?

I get it, God is so fantastic and amazing and wonderful that whatever we do falls short, I just don't appreciate the billions, women, men, children and the like, screaming in agony in hell right now because of it.

It seems my crime is not winning the heaven lottery, and failing to live up to the impossible standards set by a perfect creator, and my punishment is torture for all eternity. Come on frrosted, open your eyes to the absurdity of that. If I am not one of the lucky ones, it is impossible for me to avoid eternal torture, and you think that is justice? Born destined for hell?

Do Calvinists have children, because they really shouldn't. Think about it, you're playing a lottery with that child's soul, knowing full well that in all probability they will end up in hell.