The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Christos

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby frrostedman » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:22 pm

As a Reformed Christian, this is my (our) core belief.

Salvation comes as a result of grace alone, faith alone, and by the work of Christ alone. Catholics obviously disagree but my question now goes to the skeptics.

All I want to know is, do you agree or disagree with the following statement (one which I most certainly championed as an Agnostic):

"It is ridiculous to believe that by just simply having faith and trust in Christ, you get a ticket to heaven. This means you could just go around murdering people by the dozens--by the thousands--and then just bend a knee, confess faith, ask forgiveness, and go to heaven. What a crock! In fact, it's a complete cop-out to suggest by doing something so easy, you could wash away all your 'sins.' "

Agree? Or disagree? Pretty simple.

And no, this is not a "trap" question... and yes, I do have a point. I'm not asking you to agree with every single term... just asking if you agree or disagree with the spirit of that statement.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby greeney2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:28 pm

What is it that you think Catholics believe with regard to that statement?
greeney2
 
Posts: 9639
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby qmark » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:43 am

Could it be salvation through works?

Here is what I find interesting. Skeptics, or atheists, can ask all sorts of questions looking for that nugget to rip you apart but, when a question is asked of them, mum seems to be the word.
qmark
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby humphreys » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:23 am

qmark wrote:Could it be salvation through works?

Here is what I find interesting. Skeptics, or atheists, can ask all sorts of questions looking for that nugget to rip you apart but, when a question is asked of them, mum seems to be the word.


This is not fair, I don't think I've ever failed to answer a question asked of me.

You're getting as bad as greeney, I thought you were above these kinds of cheap shots. The thread has only been up a short time, you really should have waited before bashing atheists for not answering :thumbdown:
Last edited by humphreys on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby humphreys » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:26 am

Frrosted, I cannot really agree or disagree because it depends on the evidence.

It would be ridiculous to believe in Quantum physics without evidence because to think a thing could be in two places at once is ridiculous. However, once the evidence for such a thing became apparent it is then ridiculous to not believe it.

I think it would be ridiculous to believe in your scenario without any evidence, because on the face of it it is very far-fetched and seems generally a horribly unfair system, but if you have overwhelming evidence that it is true, then it cannot be a ridiculous thing to believe.

I'm not copping out here, I truly believe evidence is key, so I cannot really answer. If you're asking me personally, it would be ridiculous for me to accept that as I have no evidence it is true, but if you personally have strong evidence that that is the case, then belief would be logical.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby humphreys » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:33 am

I think perhaps, you are not asking if it is ridiculous to believe that, but rather whether I think such a system itself is ridiculous?

In which case yes, I agree that is a ridiculous and unfair system. But the belief in the reality of that system rests purely on the evidence for or against it. I hope that helps.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby qmark » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:01 am

humphreys wrote:
qmark wrote:
Here is what I find interesting. Skeptics, or atheists, can ask all sorts of questions looking for that nugget to rip you apart but, when a question is asked of them, mum seems to be the word.


This is not fair, I don't think I've ever failed to answer a question asked of me.

You're getting as bad as greeney, I thought you were above these kinds of cheap shots. The thread has only been up a short time, you really should have waited before bashing atheists for not answering :thumbdown:


:lol:

You are right. This thread is new. Actually, I didn't have you in mind when I responded, but I did lump you in. Sorry about that. However, what I wrote was not an attack, just an observation. My actual intent, believe it or not, was to try and speed up the responses with my "observation". I am interested in seeing where frrostedman is going with this.
qmark
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby at1with0 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:07 am

frrostedman wrote:As a Reformed Christian, this is my (our) core belief.

Salvation comes as a result of grace alone, faith alone, and by the work of Christ alone. Catholics obviously disagree but my question now goes to the skeptics.

All I want to know is, do you agree or disagree with the following statement (one which I most certainly championed as an Agnostic):

"It is ridiculous to believe that by just simply having faith and trust in Christ, you get a ticket to heaven. This means you could just go around murdering people by the dozens--by the thousands--and then just bend a knee, confess faith, ask forgiveness, and go to heaven. What a crock! In fact, it's a complete cop-out to suggest by doing something so easy, you could wash away all your 'sins.' "

Agree? Or disagree? Pretty simple.

And no, this is not a "trap" question... and yes, I do have a point. I'm not asking you to agree with every single term... just asking if you agree or disagree with the spirit of that statement.


How should any human know what it takes to get to heaven?
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby qmark » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:14 am

humphreys wrote:I'm not copping out here, I truly believe evidence is key, so I cannot really answer. If you're asking me personally, it would be ridiculous for me to accept that as I have no evidence it is true, but if you personally have strong evidence that that is the case, then belief would be logical.


I don't want to derail the thread, but your response brought a question to mind. Since we are talking about the spiritual in these threads, is it logical to expect the type of evidence that the physical usually provides. Wouldn't it's evidence, by its very nature , be different.
qmark
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby qmark » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:16 am

at1with0 wrote:
frrostedman wrote:As a Reformed Christian, this is my (our) core belief.

Salvation comes as a result of grace alone, faith alone, and by the work of Christ alone. Catholics obviously disagree but my question now goes to the skeptics.

All I want to know is, do you agree or disagree with the following statement (one which I most certainly championed as an Agnostic):

"It is ridiculous to believe that by just simply having faith and trust in Christ, you get a ticket to heaven. This means you could just go around murdering people by the dozens--by the thousands--and then just bend a knee, confess faith, ask forgiveness, and go to heaven. What a crock! In fact, it's a complete cop-out to suggest by doing something so easy, you could wash away all your 'sins.' "

Agree? Or disagree? Pretty simple.

And no, this is not a "trap" question... and yes, I do have a point. I'm not asking you to agree with every single term... just asking if you agree or disagree with the spirit of that statement.


How should any human know what it takes to get to heaven?


Answering a question with a question? It's an agree or disagree answer.
qmark
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Next

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests