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This is why majority in US oppose gov't healthcare

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Postby rath » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:34 am

frrostedman wrote:Like I said. I can see a world-class doctor, with no waiting time, any time I want, for $20.00 per visit. If Australia has something superior to that, let's hear it.



Then hear it son .........

What you define as a visit to a worlds class doctor for $20.00 per visit is the same system that Australia, Canada, France, England, Germany .... ect ect ...... The only difference is that if your low income,
(Low income = you earn less than $40,000 P.A ) you don't pay the $20.00 at all, as the visit is completely free.
No limits on the number of visits, no restriction on the doctor, specialist, or world class surgeon you can see.

you just keep proving your lack of knowledge on the subject.

The Doctors we all go to in Australia are not government doctors, they are private G.P ...
Payed for under Australia's free health care system, (( medicare ))

Free medical, dental, optical, & specialist treatment.

We don't sit around waiting to see a doctor in a run down, under staffed hospital's like you do in the USA.


Hospitals are also FREE, but only cater for, those who need to be in hospital for emergency purposes.

The hospitals are were you go in an emergency, say you present to the emergency / Trauma centre with a very very sick child, or a broken limb, or you have been involved in a car or work accident.

They the emergency / Trauma centre, will treat you and either send you home or admit you to hospital for further treatment / surgery.

If you are admitted to hospital you can either enter the free public hospital OR you can choose to enter the private hospital system.


Either way both the private & public systems are funded under the single funding system of medicare, Run by the Australian Government.

Trust me Australia / Canada / France / Cuba / Germany / England / ect ect are all far far superior then your
$20.00 a visit to your Doctor.

Moreover.

Our system is far safer aswell, because when i go to the doctor for $20.00 or less, i know i am going to get the best treatment in the world, & not a treatment plan like the one you would get in the USA based around proscribing you medication, not on what medication will cure you / ease your pain.

But rather a medication that was prescribed to you based on the number of overseas holidays or cash incentive's your doctor received from the Big pharmaceutical company's.

Regardless of whether the medication would actually help you or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)


Furthermore to this conversation, almost all Australian's have Private Health insurance. Aswell as access to the Public healthcare system.

& that's what makes Australia's healthcare system far far far Superior to that of the USA, because in the USA you have an all or nothing approach to healthcare.

Were as in Australia, we have the best of both worlds.

Cheap & affordable public & Private Healthcare, free from interference from the Death Panels of the HMO's & Employer Based Healthcare.
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Postby rath » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:17 am

The Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) began as a limited scheme in 1948, with free medicines for pensioners and a list of over 600+ ‘life-saving and disease preventing’ medicines free of charge for others in the community.

The Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) gives all Australian residents and eligible overseas visitors access to prescription medicine in a way that is affordable, reliable and timely. Through the PBS, the Australian Government subsidises the cost of prescription medicine, making it more affordable for all Australians.

Medicare Australia administers the PBS which includes processing claims and paying benefits under the PBS and Repatriation Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (RPBS).

To improve your knowledge of the PBS, you can access PBS education online—suitable for both new and experienced providers.




Eleven new drugs added to pharmaceutical benefits scheme (PBS).

Australia's FEDERAL Health Minister Tanya Plibersek says 45,000 people will benefit from cheaper medicines following the addition of 11 new drugs to the pharmaceutical benefits scheme (PBS).

The new listings include a treatment for Australians with cystic fibrosis delivered via an easy to use portable inhaler.

"Mannitol can be used by patients, including children older than six years, who cannot use or are non-responsive to medicines already listed on the PBS," Ms Plibersek said of the cystic fibrosis treatment.

It reduces the amount of mucus build-up in sufferers' lungs.

Other medicines added to the PBS include treatments for age-related macular degeneration, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoporosis, Parkinson's disease and bone marrow, prostate and kidney cancers.

Ms Plibersek announced on Sunday the government had also agreed to increase the price of six medicines already listed on the PBS.


Related Coverage
Pharmaceutical scheme to be streamlined
NEWS.com.au, 3 days ago
Probe called on prescription rip-off
The Australian, 29 May 2012
Pharmaxis soars after European approval
Herald Sun, 20 Apr 2012
Cut-price drugs to save families
The Daily Telegraph, 1 Apr 2012
Price drop on prescription drugs
Adelaide Now, 31 Mar 2012

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/el ... z1yhRhFBCi



The most frequently prescribed group of drugs in Australia are those for the cardiovascular system, accounting for just over 30 percent of all prescriptions and costs. Twenty percent of both prescriptions and costs are for the nervous system. Antineoplastic and immunomodulating agents, although accounting for less than 1 percent of prescriptions, account for 6 percent of costs. These cost, on average, ten times as much as the average drug dispensed under the PBS. The PBS initially required no patient co-payment, then on March 1, 1960, a 50-cent co-payment was introduced for general beneficiaries under the PBS. A co-payment for pensioners of A$2.50 per prescription was introduced on November 1, 1990.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:30 am

2 questions Rath, why do you need private insurance in addition to the public health care, it sounded like you were saying the public health care system includes everything and is free? What is the cost and what levels of coverage?

There is not doubt the American health care industry really sucks, not sure about all the countries you mentioned, but it is a fact many Canadians come to the USA for surguries. Its also a fact that prescription drugs can be bought in Canada or Mexico, far cheaper than in the USA. However there are concerns over the controls of these things. There is no doubt that the price of pharmacy prescriptions is hidious, and the rules of prescription plans many times are very unfair. Forcing generics which is fine, but many drugs do not have a generic, and they refuse to cover brand name drugs. Even though you plan gives a copay for generics, and copay for brand names, they still refuse to pay for many brand names.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:54 am

humphreys wrote:Well greeney the dentists know what is and is not safe to do during pregnancy. They did a root canal, pulled another in the back I believe, and are going to do some fillings.

She gets all dental work completely free here up to a year after the birth, I think. She was having a really bad time in the US with her teeth but we just couldn't afford to get the work done.

In the US, we just had an awful time of health care all round. I think if you either have a good job which has you covered, or you're poor enough for them to get you on the free care plans, then things are okay over there, but if you're kinda in the middle ground between poor and well off, and you don't have the right kind of job to get you insurance, then it's going to be horrendous for you.

Some examples of what we had to deal with in the US (part of the reason we had to return to the UK):

1) My wife could not get insurance due to a previous condition, so uninsured, money-wise, she was a ticking time-bomb
2) My insurance, while seemingly expensive to me, gave me such bad coverage.
3) Dental work was a complete non-starter due to costs

I had a minor issue where I was getting some pains in my lower stomach, and went to the doctor for a quick checkup, and he decided to send me for a CT scan, and then later an ultrasound, and blood tests. Nearly 1000 dollars later I was told it was probably IBS, or stress, or I had pulled a muscle.

The problem resolved itself, but everything combined I spent 1000 dollars over nothing.

Another time, I went to a doctor for an infection, and she sent me for some antibiotics, but I guess she thought I needed a special kind, and the meds were not covered so cost me 80 dollars. Outrageous. The visit itself cost 30 so we are talking over 100 for a standard, minor infection. If something serious would have happened to any of us (especially my uninsured wife) it would have bankrupt me.

This is the problem when health care is just a business. You're being insured by a company who is trying to make sure you're someone who is going to make them money. It's a bit like a casino, if anyone starts winning they're going to drop you or not accept you in the first place.



I pretty much agree with everything you said, and 1.2 and 3 are very accurate. My sister in law, a single 57 year old, and limited income was paying about $750 per month for Kaiser, and may have had to cancel it. I took early retirment from my job because they intended to take away retirement medical, after we had been vested for it with Boeing. We were forced out by deadline dates, or you would not get what you had already earned with the companies changed hands. Both of us, would have fallen into a previous condition and been uninsurable. The prescription coverage was crucial for us, and still is. I'm now of medicare age, so my insurance from work is my secondary, I'm very lucky, as it also covers Mrs. G2 for life.

Group medical insurance usually never discriminates about prior condidtions, or excludes coverage, and that is the way insurance should be. Private insurance is another story. Most people do not know big companies like mine, give you a card for an insurance company and providers, but in fact are self insured. The arguement about prior conditions is like the car insurance assigned risk, where good drivers are rewarded with good rates, and they will not insure bad drivers. Its not hard to understand in those terms, but also insurance is a cruel world. From a purly business policy its understandable, from a humanitarian perspective its immoral. This is why sick people end up uninsured, and forgotten, left with no alternatives but state aid, which takes an act of congress to get.

I only brought up the dental thing because my daughter was a high risk pregnancy, so their was a big concern doing any dental work so delayed it, thought I would just pass that on. I would not look to the dentist for such a decision, the OB/GYN or other is the one to ask. I'm sure Mrs. H cleared it with that Dr. first. Dental coverage and dental costs in the USA are overboard. I've never had to do it, but gum problems a coworker had, cost him over 15K, and is not covered by either dental plans or medical plans.
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Postby rath » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:21 am

greeney2 wrote:2 questions Rath, why do you need private insurance in addition to the public health care, it sounded like you were saying the public health care system includes everything and is free? What is the cost and what levels of coverage?

There is not doubt the American health care industry really sucks, not sure about all the countries you mentioned, but it is a fact many Canadians come to the USA for surguries.


The public heath care system is free, from consults with the doctor to the cost of the bed, ect ect.

However there are other costs outside the hospital network, such as the ambulance.

It's there such costs that are covered under private insurance for example.

Also, the public health system will treat any and all ailments and conditions, but often there is a waiting list as is the case in every hospital & healthcare system around the world, & you are treated by the next DR of the rank.

Private health insurance lets you Choose your own DR & to be treated ASAP ( Jump the queue )

& lets face it, if you had chronic health issues, needed a lung, or kidney, or heart transplant, was involved in a car crash, was slowly loosing your eye sight, or had cancer of some sort, would you wish to wait months or even years to see a Dr or Specialist for free, & risk being worse of then you are right now.

Or would you say, my life is to important to put at risk waiting to see a Dr in a year or two, so although i have the right to free healthcare, ...... I also have the right to use my own private insurance & have my insurance company pay for me to be treated RIGHT NOW, by the best Dr in said field where they are in Australia / or on the other side of the world, wherever that Dr my be from.

Private health insurance pays all the extra costs as-well, the cost of the Ambulance, the cost of the bed, the cost of the treatment (( everything the Public heath system pays for & even more then that. ))

private health insurance allows you to be treated when you want it ( ASAP ) Today, Tomorrow, like NOW. no waiting lists.

& you get to pick your DR / specialist.

Ther Australian Government even helps Pay for your health insurance because the government knows that it helps ease the work load & pressures on the public health system & hospitals meaning treatment is given faster & as a result money is saved.

If it takes to long to treat somebody then their problems turn into several health problems.

Take Dental treatment ...... free dental, means people can get their teeth fixed for free.

Free treatment means people are more likely to seek treatment.

If you have bad teeth and don't get free treatment .... then more often than not, people wont seek the treatment. because the costs are to expensive. say $1000 - $8000 to see a dentist.

If you cant pay the $1000 - $8000 to see the dentist, then you just live with your bad teeth.

Next thing you know, you bad teeth turn into bad gums

& your bad gums turn into infected gums, (( Gingivitis )) ........... & your Gingivitis turns into blood poisoning.

& your blood poisoning turns into a heart infection, which in turn leads to heart disease, & a need for a heart transplant.


So you see ..... ones inability to pay the $1000 - $8000 dentist fee, turns into a 1.5 to 3 million dollar heart transplant & a very long stay in hospital.

Now what do you think is better, the $1000 - $8000 dentist fee. Or the 1.5 to $3 million dollar heart transplant & stay in hospital because you couldn't pay the $1000 - $8000 dentist fee.


http://www.privatehealth.gov.au/healthi ... iscovered/


Australian Government Private Health Insurance Rebate

http://www.privatehealth.gov.au/healthi ... rebate.htm
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:40 am

rath wrote:& lets face it, if you had chronic health issues, needed a lung, or kidney, or heart transplant, was involved in a car crash, was slowly loosing your eye sight, or had cancer of some sort, would you wish to wait months or even years to see a Dr or Specialist for free, & risk being worse of then you are right now.

Or would you say, my life is to important to put at risk waiting to see a Dr in a year or two, so although i have the right to free healthcare, ...... I also have the right to use my own private insurance & have my insurance company pay for me to be treated RIGHT NOW, by the best Dr in said field where they are in Australia / or on the other side of the world, wherever that Dr my be from.


This is exactly what I have been saying, that socialized medicine is all not that great. You need to add to it a private policy, which you didn't say how much that costs you. How expensive is that additional insurance? I said it is common for Canadians to cross the border to get operations in the USA. I have always had a plan where I can pick my own doctor or specialist. The HMO's usually are the ones who are the "gatekeepers" and you have to get referred, but PPO's don't have to do that. Medicare I also can choose my own doctor, and our doctors, it doesn't make a difference waiting time to be seen, who your insurance is with. They take all of them.
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Postby rath » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:57 am

Did you look at any of my links in my last post it was all there.

There are hundreds of private health insurance company's in Austral, & because they are subject to both the free market & competition as well as government oversight regarding cost & charges, the price very depending on your level of cover and what extras & options you choose.


Prices rage from ......

Family Cover From $42.95 a week
Singles Cover From $11.55 a week Active Saver From $11.55 a week
Choices 70 From $15.15 a week



Here is one such company ....... why don't you tell me whether it is cheap or expansive.

there is a get a quote option ..... get a quote.

http://www.medibank.com.au/
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:15 pm

humphreys wrote:I had a minor issue where I was getting some pains in my lower stomach, and went to the doctor for a quick checkup, and he decided to send me for a CT scan, and then later an ultrasound, and blood tests. Nearly 1000 dollars later I was told it was probably IBS, or stress, or I had pulled a muscle.

You know how most people hate attorneys? I hate doctors. It's just what you are talking about there that really, really pisses me off. The doctors make you go see all these "specialists" for which I am certain they receive kickbacks, under the guise that they are trying to help you but instead are just running up the bill. That is another thing we should tackle. Frivolous lawsuits, and doctors prescribing completely unnecessary treatments.

Now if the doctors were all like that, I could see an advantage in "free"/tax-paid healthcare because then the taxpayers would all have to share the burden. But why not tackle the problem where it exists. In the doctor's office. Doctors should have to explain to the insurance companies exactly why your specialized treatments were a MUST, or else it gets wiped off the bill.

The problem resolved itself, but everything combined I spent 1000 dollars over nothing.

My uncle has gout (as do I). When he had his first gout attack, he went to the doctor with pain in his foot, running up his leg. He ended up in the hospital for 3 days, with doctors pretending to think he had Phlebitis. So, 5,000 dollars later (all out of pocket, he was not insured), he was prescribed Ibuprofen for gout and released.

That's the kind of stuff that makes attorneys look like angels. Doctors are worse because your very life is at stake. Or so they would have you believe.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. :evil:

Now I better go gobble some blood pressure meds and stay away from this subject for awhile.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby humphreys » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:11 am

Even aside from the money the whole thing kinda scared the heck out of me to be honest. I had to drink the horrible Barium stuff which made me feel awful the next day, and sat there worrying I had a tumour or something when there really was no justification for it all.

The blood tests were a decent idea as I hadn't had any for ages, but the CT was way overkill, and yeah, I'm sure he was making extra money from the tests I was having.
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Postby rath » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:05 am

frrostedman wrote:
humphreys wrote:I had a minor issue where I was getting some pains in my lower stomach, and went to the doctor for a quick checkup, and he decided to send me for a CT scan, and then later an ultrasound, and blood tests. Nearly 1000 dollars later I was told it was probably IBS, or stress, or I had pulled a muscle.

You know how most people hate attorneys? I hate doctors. It's just what you are talking about there that really, really pisses me off. The doctors make you go see all these "specialists" for which I am certain they receive kickbacks, under the guise that they are trying to help you but instead are just running up the bill. That is another thing we should tackle. Frivolous lawsuits, and doctors prescribing completely unnecessary treatments.


frrostedman wrote:The doctors make you go see all these "specialists" for which I am certain they receive kickbacks, under the guise that they are trying to help you but instead are just running up the bill.


Like i said already, ......... that's exactly what happens, the Doctors in the USA' get kick backs based on the tests & medications they prescribe, to their patents. ((( Such a thing can never happen in Australia, ))) because the doctors are not allowed to receive bribes or incentives & their payments are caped by Australia's medicare system.


frrostedman wrote:Now if the doctors were all like that, I could see an advantage in "free"/tax-paid healthcare because then the taxpayers would all have to share the burden. But why not tackle the problem where it exists. In the doctor's office. Doctors should have to explain to the insurance companies exactly why your specialized treatments were a MUST, or else it gets wiped off the bill.


Why, ???

When it serves them not to, & take my word for it mate. Both the Doctor & the insurance company's & even your insurance providers ( work based insurance or otherwise ) already know the costs of any such treatment.

& guess what, the actual cost .... is only a fraction of the cost they pass onto the patent.


moreover .... why in gods name would they ever wish to change the current system as it suits them both down to a Tea.

When the insurance company's put their prices up ...... so do the Doctors.... & they both charge you more, for less.

& when the Doctors put their prices up ....... WOW, ... So do the insurance company's.

& if your health insurance is attached to your job ((( another thing that would never happen in Australia ))) If it's attached to your job & having a job, then your employer has to find the extra money .... so your employer cuts your wages, or benefits, or hours, or all of the above.

As a result ..... everybody is worse off & the Doctors & Insurance Company's laugh at just how Stupid the American people are, for letting them both get away with it for so long.
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