The Black Vault

humphreys wrote:

Halfabo wrote:
God may exist outside of our space and time, but he cannot possibly not exist within some form of time. If he truly exists outside of all time, creation itself is impossible. To say God created the Universe is to say he caused it to come into existence, which means there must have been a time when there was no Universe, and then, due to an action on God's part, it began to exist.

All of the above is only possible within time, and infinite regress is then a genuine problem.

That is like saying an artist cannot paint a landscape without being part of the painting. God could exist in some form of time. But, that form of time could be so foreign to our understanding of time that it becomes irrelevant. It is also possible for time not to exist before there are objects that mark the passage of time. Space, matter and time must exist together. Without space and matter, time is meaningless.

If God is pure consciousness and space, time and matter are merely ideas within that consciousness, then he can exist separate from those ideas. We experience them as physical but, that is only from our limited ability to comprehend the fullness of reality. All that we experience as real, while being quite real to us, may be no more than an idea to God. All of the universe and the life in it may be only an idea. What we see as an after life, may be the reality that all things will inhabit once that idea becomes a reality.

at1with0 wrote:That's pretty much what I think. So you don't see a problem with infinite regress?

A problem with reality being dynamic all on its own, not needing some uselessly unknowable and separate creator to "explain" it all?

No problemo whatsoever. I prefer it, in fact, to some half-baked idea of a magical being outside of everything that always was yet uses its special powers to make stuff happen...

It's unnecessary. It's silly. Either reality is totally inclusive or not. To treat it as if it were not and say there was some being preceding reality is a nonsensical idea that ultimately renders the concept of reality meaningless.

It's the same old tired mentality that made up deities to explain this or that phenomenon, only generalized to "explain" everything. Yet it fails even at that. It's a false explanation that gives us nothing useful to work with. It just says, "so-and-so deity made everything with his powers" and leaves it at that.

Not good enough.

at1with0 wrote:

at1with0 wrote:

frrostedman wrote:For reality to have created itself, it would have to have existed, and not existed, at the same time and in the same relation. This idea of self-creation turns logic on its ear.

Humphreys, i.e. in the video you watched I think it was mentioned, if there was anything that was ever created, then logic dictates that at some point in the past there was a creator which always existed and never didn't exist.

Before you tell me that makes no sense, remember, you are entertaining the same notion with reality itself.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that reality creates itself continually and has done such forever. There is nothing external to reality. There was never a time when reality did not exist.

What is wrong with an infinite regress of causes?

And if there is a first cause, the natural question is why is that the Christian God?

The Christian God stakes claim as the first cause. Of course, we human beings have no way of knowing in the way of being able to prove it to ourselves, but bona fide Christians have faith in, among other things, the words of the bible being true. The claim to have created all things is pretty unique.

Halfabo wrote:

humphreys wrote:

Halfabo wrote:
God may exist outside of our space and time, but he cannot possibly not exist within some form of time. If he truly exists outside of all time, creation itself is impossible. To say God created the Universe is to say he caused it to come into existence, which means there must have been a time when there was no Universe, and then, due to an action on God's part, it began to exist.

All of the above is only possible within time, and infinite regress is then a genuine problem.

That is like saying an artist cannot paint a landscape without being part of the painting.

It's not the same thing.

I am not saying God has to be part of our time, but he must be part of some kind of time, otherwise creation is impossible. That's just basic common sense.

Time is change. No time, no change. No change, no creation.

Halfabo wrote:God could exist in some form of time. But, that form of time could be so foreign to our understanding of time that it becomes irrelevant. It is also possible for time not to exist before there are objects that mark the passage of time. Space, matter and time must exist together. Without space and matter, time is meaningless.

God may exist in some foreign mysterious kind of time that we don't understand, but he is still within some form of time, and therefore there will be issues with infinite regress. Sure, there may be a way around that issue, but by appealing to something that's just "beyond our understanding" you're admitting you don't have a strong case for God.

I could say the same thing about the Universe coming into existence without a God - that I don't need to explain how it happened, it just "did", and the rest is beyond our comprehension.

I am not saying you are wrong, necessarily, or that God cannot exist, I am just saying your case and the case made for God's existence in this thread is not strong, as you're having to bypass infinite regress by appealing to God working in mysterious ways, beyond our understanding, which is at best a bit of a cop-out.

At least when the atheist tries to explain our existence, he gives possible ways in which it could have happened, he doesn't just say "even though it seems completely impossible, I think it happened in some mysterious way that is beyond our understanding, and therefore I can reject God".

Humans only know time as a method of measurement related to planet Earth and our Sun. We only relate distances to other stars and galaxies, by light years, knowing the speed of our suns light, as the fastest way to reach them. OUr concept of time is more about distances, and counting rotation # of orbits. What ever time was to God, the question goes back to the beginning, when or if, the world was a void with nothing. If that is true, what was time before the beginning. Hafabo is correct, there are concepts of time, we can not comprehend.

Time is not one of the 4 primary forces of Nature either. They are Gravity, the strong and weak forces of the Atom, and Electro Magnetic forces.

We don't even need to use the word "time", or equate it with our concept of time in any way. The fact remains that God has to "act". He has to take something that does not exist, and then proceed to make it exist. The "existence" comes "after" the non-existence, it just has to.

Therefore, whatever concept of time God is in, it must comprise "moments". You can not go from "no-thing" to "some-thing", or create a Universe, without the use of "moments". Whatever time God exists in, we know it must have moments for him to create things.

If there are moments, and God always existed, that means there are an infinite number of moments spanning into the past, in the reality where God creates. If God's "thoughts" occur in those "moments", then he has had an infinite number of prior thoughts, and that's where the issues with infinite regress come in.

Believers seem to want it both ways. They want to say God "always existed", and they want to say he "created our Universe" at "the beginning", but they also want to say that God does not exist in time as we know it. Those are contradictory statements. You're making comments about God's actions within a framework of time that we understand, whilst stating we cannot comprehend the time he exists in.

You started by saying we do not need to use the word "time", and ended up using it trying to equate "moment". How can you ask me the question "What Time is it"? without using the word time. (in English, since I know you are in the UK and speak a foriegn language )

I was trying to avoid the connotations of "time" with the "space-time" of our Universe.

"Moment" is a more flexible word, it can apply to any concept of time, whether in our Universe or not. I think any concept of time must have moments.

Without moments, how can you create anything?

Is God's realm without moments? If it is, how could he possibly create our Universe?

One reason I find it difficult to take religious arguments seriously is because it all always comes down to a "God can do anything" defense of illogical statements. Once you abandon logic and start relying on super powers as a glue to hold your argument together, you're not really in a good position to criticize any other kooky claims.

It's irrational thinking, to be honest, but I understand that many people will believe all sorts of nonsense if it comforts them in some way. That's also why these religious claims are always going to be highly suspect... Bottom line is, they appeal to people's hopes and fears, not to reasoning. Religious people desperately want to be right. They have a stake in their religion's stories, emotional and psychological ties that corrupt their judgement.

You don't want to recognize superpowers of God, and claim logic doesn't allow it, while you are buying tickets to the movies to see superheros from Spidermen to Terminators, Rambo to the Green Lantern, Just about any hot chick dressed in tight superhero spandex, and hundreds of TV shows every week. Lets not even get into computer generated superpowers, like transformers. Go Figure!