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Postby frrostedman » Thu May 10, 2012 10:59 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:I remember having a new engineer...on the job and we were flushing an hydraulic oil system taking samples and also looking at the oil strained through a special muslin bag. This engineer would come down every two hours for an oil sample and to look at the bags for metal and grit particles. He told me that they would look at the oil sample under a certain kind of light in the laboratory. He also told me that you can have alot of junk in the bag and yet have a passing oil sample in the laboratory. I was astonished at this statement.om

Perhaps the sample was given a passing grade (note the double entendre), if a certain amount of debris was found but not more than that amount. No oil is perfect. Metal parts are going to lose bits of metal over time, no matter what. The best oils will greatly diminish the destructive effects of friction, heat, pressure, and colliding metal parts, but no oil completely eliminates those effects.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby orangetom1999 » Fri May 11, 2012 8:39 am

Frostedman,

Perhaps the sample was given a passing grade (note the double entendre), if a certain amount of debris was found but not more than that amount. No oil is perfect. Metal parts are going to lose bits of metal over time, no matter what. The best oils will greatly diminish the destructive effects of friction, heat, pressure, and colliding metal parts, but no oil completely eliminates those effects.



You are correct here Frostedman. That is how a proper sample is taken. There must be less than a certain amount of debris in the sample. Also a certain moisture content as well. However...the question arises ...is the sample representative of what is floating around in the system itself...not just in the sample.

When you have sharp metal debris in the test bag taken...but not in the sample jar going to the laboratory..or gritty debris in the test bag but not in the sample...do you have an actual representation of conditions in the system itself. That is the proper goal..not just the sample only per se.

The purpose of all this work is to prove the System itself clean Not just the oil sample per se.

This is the difference in appearances and substance...legal and lawful..

Legal...only the appearance of law...the form only of law..

Lawful....what the law is intended to accomplish. What the law is intended to do in a structure of people.

What we have here is the appearance/form of being a clean system.

The system itself has filters throughout it to help keep debris down. Filters which are occasionally changed on schedules. But it is best to start out with a System itself... cleaned to a high degree of confidence.

What happens if you do not have a clean system with which to start operating..you will be changing out these strainers often...between schedules...and you do not want a catastrophic failure...while operating....under operations. For this could be disastrous.

On another note about oil itself......oil samples are taken from the 55 gallon barrels as they come from the factory before this oil is used in a system..and I have know oil to fail the sampling. Astonishing but true. The oil did not meet the standard for particles/make up as well as water content....from the factory.

I notice some companies are willing to sample your automobile oil today...for it's content. Very interesting.

Thanks,
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Postby frrostedman » Sat May 12, 2012 4:07 am

New oil from the factory, failing a particle/debris test? What... is it used oil? :o
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Postby greeney2 » Sat May 12, 2012 8:27 am

Oil like anything products that has a standard, can only be as good if the rare materials, crude oil, mined ores, or even livestock and other commodities, come from the best available materials. I'm sure that cheap oils may come from sourses that are not "premium" raw materials out of the ground. Or at least the refining process for higher quality, has additional steps to meet, and also inspections. The meat we eat is inspected and rated, and they know what is prime beef from the way they are fed and raised. Metals can come from low grade ores. However materials like our space programs use, require complete tracablity literally to the load of ore taken out of the ground. That is one reason our space program is so expensive, material standard and complete tracability. Like OT says about oils, they have a certain standard which is tested regularly, so oil is just not oil, they have standards and grades.

Anyone remember hearing when talking about steel, that products like top quality knives, are made from the best Swedish steel? It is becasue the quality of their ore was considered so high, consequently their materials were superior. If you have knowledge of petrolium products (which I do not have) I'm betting the best oils come form the higher grade crudes out of the ground, and the lower grades are never used.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat May 12, 2012 1:19 pm

Greeny2 is correct about oils and metals.

Metals made into products having very high standards..the metal can be traced back to the ore as it came out of the ground...complete traceability. This is indeed part of the very expensive costs associated with certain products.

Nuclear grade materials also must needs meet such an standard of traceability..and once again ..hence the costs.

To my limited knowledge the art of both metals and oils is such that it can be chemically and scientifically manipulated to improve the mix or content to get what they desire. Good ore from the ground is part of it ...yes...but I believe much of this can be scientifically engineered unto the end result.

Oils can be recycled..reprocessed and the same with metals. To my limited knowledge today....many of the metals are being recycled...more and more verses mined metals. Our trash heaps may become the new ore mines.

I don't know about where you folks are located but here I see more and more trucks leaving with these smashed flat car bodies ..than I recall in years past. More cars seem to be recycled than I remember..how about you folks??

I would take a guess...that some of your more exotic metals...probably need traceability from the mines to the finished product and delivery to the factories. These are very controlled processes.

I know that submarines use a metal called HY 100 or most of them here HY80. This metal I believe would have to be a total controlled process from the mines where the ores are extracted/ mined to the delivery of the metal at the yards.
I don't believe this would be recycled metal.

Same thing with the reactor metals ..for highest quality control.


Frostedman...no it is not used oil.

Oil is often kept for long periods of time in warehouses...or storage depots until an order needs be filled.
No telling how much condensate occurred in the barrels while in storage before delivery. I believe this is what happened in the case of some of these barrels of oil...55 gallon drums.

Nonetheless the samples failed ..and we got a new batch of barrels and sampled it again..that time it passed.

This stuff happens more than most people think or know about. It just does not make the evening news.

Thanks to all for their posts,
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