The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

A Happy Slave Doesn't Require Total Freedom

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby at1with0 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:54 am

humphreys is such a nice guy to explain as he did. :mrgreen:
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
at1with0
 
Posts: 9182
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby humphreys » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 am

You know me! :thumbup:

:angel:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby greeney2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:33 am

No, this is not a test of what is known as will. anyone can be asked to hold their breath under water for 5 seconds, it doesn't take will at all. The guy who can do it for 5 minutes has will. Will in the physical sence are how long you can endure, when you have had enough, threshholds for pain, letting go when its time to die. Your test does not demonstrate any more than a path test and reaction time for the nerve system.

Free will still has nothing to do with physical acts at all, it has to do with your decisions about doing good or bad, philisophical and spiritual directions, compassion, caring, empathy, decisions or the soul, The believe in God and to Worship God, things that have nothing to do with physical acts.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9632
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby humphreys » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:13 am

Really not sure what you're not getting :Doh:

Your use of "will" as "endurance" is not what we're talking about, so ignore that.

We're talking about free-will or volition, the ability to make decisions freely, good or bad as you say.

An example:

I move my right arm into the air, because I want to. I feel the urge to do so, and then act out that urge by my own volition.

That is what we are discussing, agreed?

The question is, is that feeling that you are in control of your own actions based in reality, or is it an illusion?

The experiments I cited strongly suggest it is an illusion, because the "urge" to do something, and the feeling that we are doing something by our own choice, is created by the brain after it has already decided to commit to the act.

Are we getting anywhere yet? You are confusing different things here and I am trying my best to explain myself. You keep saying it's a test of nervous system reaction times and I've stated why that is unlikely to be the case, but I don't think you're understanding why that is not the case.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby greeney2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:29 am

I just do not see simple remedial physical tasks as any test of will, I see it as only the physical reaction, process time, and cooperation with the experiment. What gives someone more endurance from someone else? Ever been in the military service where you are forced to run literally until you wish you died, or passed out? Had your limits tested far beyond, anything you ever imagined? It is not just the measurement of just conditioning and endurance, it is a test of sure will to "do or die", where you continue on will alone, pure guts and something from your inner self. Hence, what I was saying about atheletes, like boxers who fight with sure will and heart, and will not go down. Something extrodinary or far beyond normal expectations.

Like i said, physical will in the sence of a simple tasks like this isn't the real test of will. You may refer to it as simple will, but the 2 terms are totally differnet IMHO. "Free will" I have explained what it means to me, and it is also completly unrelated to physical will, or this test.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9632
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby humphreys » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:36 pm

Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up :wall:

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

Postby OraProNobis » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:06 pm

humphreys wrote:Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up :wall:

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.


Maybe if you wouldn't use examples for free will concerning body movements , you may be able to make your point more efficiently ?

The body has an natural reaction reflex, that I don't think is in the true context of 'free will" that the bible talks of . That is of the spirit. We don't even have free will when it concerns our emotions, but we have free will of spirit to fight the emotions that we don't want to have , and we know are not good for us, such as excessive anger, envy, etc.
User avatar
OraProNobis
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:57 pm

Postby greeney2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:55 pm

Thank You OraProNobis, exactly this is a test of physical reflex, time and ability. My medical tests also delt with the inabilty due to nerve damage. Humphreys is claiming this test is an example of "will" in its most simple physical sense. I would not call this will at all, I call will some level of perseverance, beyond what we call physical endurance. Humphreys, you also brought up endurance so I talked about that too.

OraProNobis also has the same view that Free will and will are both totally different, in that free will has nothing to do with the physical reflexes of the body and movements. I do not totally argee with you OraProNobis about the emotions part, since we have the free will to be hateful or loving, cruel or compassionate, freewill to do good or do bad, help instead of harm, be joyful or cynical, etc.

Did your test declare the hypothesis was to proove will, or is that your opinion it prooves it? I do not think it does at all.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9632
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby frrostedman » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:57 pm

I heard something interesting once. It seems counterintuitive but if you really think about it, it's true.

Everything we choose to do is an exercise of free will.

The only thing I will exclude from that is faithful belief in the LORD, though since in my opinion it's not a choice, it doesn't enter into the equation anyway.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
frrostedman
 
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby humphreys » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:33 am

OraProNobis wrote:
humphreys wrote:Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up :wall:

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.


Maybe if you wouldn't use examples for free will concerning body movements , you may be able to make your point more efficiently ?


But "free-will" is deeply connected to bodily movements because in most cases exercising your free-will involves doing something physical.

For instance, I decide to at some chocolate. I have to walk to the shops using my body, pick up the bar, reach into my pocket to get my wallet, pay the cashier, open the bar, put it in my mouth, chew it, swallow, etc...these are all physical acts. You cannot demonstrate free-will easily without physical acts.

The physical act is the acting out of that free-will.

Greeney sees physical movement in the experiments and automatically assumes they are then tests of endurance, but they're not, they're tests of a human's capacity to act out of their own volition.
Last edited by humphreys on Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
User avatar
humphreys
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 pm
Location: Inside your head.

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest