The Black Vault

humphreys is such a nice guy to explain as he did.

You know me!

No, this is not a test of what is known as will. anyone can be asked to hold their breath under water for 5 seconds, it doesn't take will at all. The guy who can do it for 5 minutes has will. Will in the physical sence are how long you can endure, when you have had enough, threshholds for pain, letting go when its time to die. Your test does not demonstrate any more than a path test and reaction time for the nerve system.

Free will still has nothing to do with physical acts at all, it has to do with your decisions about doing good or bad, philisophical and spiritual directions, compassion, caring, empathy, decisions or the soul, The believe in God and to Worship God, things that have nothing to do with physical acts.

Really not sure what you're not getting

Your use of "will" as "endurance" is not what we're talking about, so ignore that.

We're talking about free-will or volition, the ability to make decisions freely, good or bad as you say.

An example:

I move my right arm into the air, because I want to. I feel the urge to do so, and then act out that urge by my own volition.

That is what we are discussing, agreed?

The question is, is that feeling that you are in control of your own actions based in reality, or is it an illusion?

The experiments I cited strongly suggest it is an illusion, because the "urge" to do something, and the feeling that we are doing something by our own choice, is created by the brain after it has already decided to commit to the act.

Are we getting anywhere yet? You are confusing different things here and I am trying my best to explain myself. You keep saying it's a test of nervous system reaction times and I've stated why that is unlikely to be the case, but I don't think you're understanding why that is not the case.

I just do not see simple remedial physical tasks as any test of will, I see it as only the physical reaction, process time, and cooperation with the experiment. What gives someone more endurance from someone else? Ever been in the military service where you are forced to run literally until you wish you died, or passed out? Had your limits tested far beyond, anything you ever imagined? It is not just the measurement of just conditioning and endurance, it is a test of sure will to "do or die", where you continue on will alone, pure guts and something from your inner self. Hence, what I was saying about atheletes, like boxers who fight with sure will and heart, and will not go down. Something extrodinary or far beyond normal expectations.

Like i said, physical will in the sence of a simple tasks like this isn't the real test of will. You may refer to it as simple will, but the 2 terms are totally differnet IMHO. "Free will" I have explained what it means to me, and it is also completly unrelated to physical will, or this test.

Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.

humphreys wrote:Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.

Maybe if you wouldn't use examples for free will concerning body movements , you may be able to make your point more efficiently ?

The body has an natural reaction reflex, that I don't think is in the true context of 'free will" that the bible talks of . That is of the spirit. We don't even have free will when it concerns our emotions, but we have free will of spirit to fight the emotions that we don't want to have , and we know are not good for us, such as excessive anger, envy, etc.

Thank You OraProNobis, exactly this is a test of physical reflex, time and ability. My medical tests also delt with the inabilty due to nerve damage. Humphreys is claiming this test is an example of "will" in its most simple physical sense. I would not call this will at all, I call will some level of perseverance, beyond what we call physical endurance. Humphreys, you also brought up endurance so I talked about that too.

OraProNobis also has the same view that Free will and will are both totally different, in that free will has nothing to do with the physical reflexes of the body and movements. I do not totally argee with you OraProNobis about the emotions part, since we have the free will to be hateful or loving, cruel or compassionate, freewill to do good or do bad, help instead of harm, be joyful or cynical, etc.

Did your test declare the hypothesis was to proove will, or is that your opinion it prooves it? I do not think it does at all.

I heard something interesting once. It seems counterintuitive but if you really think about it, it's true.

Everything we choose to do is an exercise of free will.

The only thing I will exclude from that is faithful belief in the LORD, though since in my opinion it's not a choice, it doesn't enter into the equation anyway.

OraProNobis wrote:

humphreys wrote:Why are you still talking about endurance? I made it clear multiple times it's not about that. I tried really hard to make it clear, now I give up

Please anyone, if I have not made this clear let me know, cause I feel like I must be losing my mind right now.

Maybe if you wouldn't use examples for free will concerning body movements , you may be able to make your point more efficiently ?

But "free-will" is deeply connected to bodily movements because in most cases exercising your free-will involves doing something physical.

For instance, I decide to at some chocolate. I have to walk to the shops using my body, pick up the bar, reach into my pocket to get my wallet, pay the cashier, open the bar, put it in my mouth, chew it, swallow, etc...these are all physical acts. You cannot demonstrate free-will easily without physical acts.

The physical act is the acting out of that free-will.

Greeney sees physical movement in the experiments and automatically assumes they are then tests of endurance, but they're not, they're tests of a human's capacity to act out of their own volition.