What is truth?

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Re: What is truth?

Postby at1with0 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:18 am

Well, I believe all numbers, hypernatural to surreal, all have equal ontological primacy, and they have equal ontological primacy as any set, meaning that numbers "exist" if and only if sets "exist".

The definitions, axioms, and rules of inference are the cruxes of the matter. What is usually assumed is that once you have definitions and once you select axioms to assume (for the sake of an argument) and once you decide what rules of inference are allowed (such as modus ponens), the aggregate of all theorems "generated" by the axioms/definitions/rules of inference is set in stone, so to speak.

If someone defines oaweincaeonvadje, lists axioms that oaweincaeonvadjes satsify (which is a description about how oaweincaeonvadjes behave), and accepts a collection of allowed rules of inference, then the aggregate of all theorems (i.e., "true statements") about oaweincaeonvadjes follows. If there is no definition of oaweincaeonvadjes and/or no axioms describing how oaweincaeonvadjes behave, then literally every statement about oaweincaeonvadjes is entailed, including the ones I believe and the ones you believe. That's just a general principle called vacuous truth.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby khanster » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:00 pm

Whatever axioms we choose, there are going to be problems...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del ... s_theorems

If mathematics structure is analogous to a well tailored suit, then there will always be loose threads hanging out of it no matter what axioms are chosen... :wall:

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Re: What is truth?

Postby at1with0 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:56 am

Godel's theorems don't worry me as much as that the word set is undefined.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby khanster » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:14 pm

at1with0 wrote:Godel's theorems don't worry me as much as that the word set is undefined.


I am not sure if I 100% understand Christopher Langan's solution to the liar paradox :geek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox#Chris_Langan


Chris Langan

Chris Langan in his work The Theory of Theories states:

... Consider the statement “this sentence is false.” It is easy to dress this statement up as a logical formula. Aside from being true or false, what else could such a formula say about itself? Could it pronounce itself, say, unprovable? Let’s try it: "This formula is unprovable". If the given formula is in fact unprovable, then it is true and therefore a theorem. Unfortunately, the axiomatic method cannot recognize it as such without a proof. On the other hand, suppose it is provable. Then it is self-apparently false (because its provability belies what it says of itself) and yet true (because provable without respect to content)! It seems that we still have the makings of a paradox…a statement that is "unprovably provable" and therefore absurd.

But what if we now introduce a distinction between levels of proof? For example, what if we define a metalanguage as a language used to talk about, analyze or prove things regarding statements in a lower-level object language, and call the base level of Gödel’s formula the "object" level and the higher (proof) level the "metalanguage" level? Now we have one of two things: a statement that can be metalinguistically proven to be linguistically unprovable, and thus recognized as a theorem conveying valuable information about the limitations of the object language, or a statement that cannot be metalinguistically proven to be linguistically unprovable, which, though uninformative, is at least no paradox. Voilà: self-reference without paradox! It turns out that "this formula is unprovable" can be translated into a generic example of an undecidable mathematical truth.

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Re: What is truth?

Postby at1with0 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:15 am

"This statement in the metalanguage is unprovable in the metalanguage."
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Re: What is truth?

Postby khanster » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:21 pm

Christopher Langan's reasoning for the set of all sets paradox only works if there is a largest finite number... :think:



http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/68592.html

But whatever large finite number that can be computed, you can always add + 1 :ugeek:
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Re: What is truth?

Postby at1with0 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:24 pm

Right, every natural number has a successor...
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Re: What is truth?

Postby DIss0n80r » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:49 pm

Circles are abstract representations of observable phenomena.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby DIss0n80r » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:55 pm

at1with0 wrote:Right, every natural number has a successor...


Do derivative numbers exist?
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Re: What is truth?

Postby at1with0 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:03 am

Call me crazy but I think all numbers have equal ontological primacy.
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