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Former believer - pastor comes out as non-believer

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Postby humphreys » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:12 am

:hand:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:36 am

See you couldn't ignore me, you read what I said, you won't last long with the silent treatment. :silent:
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Postby humphreys » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:38 am

greeney2 wrote:See you couldn't ignore me, you read what I said, you won't last long with the silent treatment. :silent:


:hand:
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:50 am

This is fun, how long will you last? :wave: I have faith it will not be long, notice I did not say Faith? :angel: They are 2 different things.

I Noticed you had no response to Dawkins having done nothing for all the suffering people God has caused? Any thoughts as to why such hostility from the Atheist crowd, and that this Pastor who lost his Faith, did not have such hosility nor desire to pull believers from their own belief? That he still had their best interrests in his heart, and was kind enough to not badmouth Dawkins for his behavior twards believers?

Even you have to admit that religions and churches provide Billions of dollars in aid to the starving and medically suffering populations. They are doing something about it.

Can you give me any example of a humanitian effort spearheaded by atheists, or Dawkins, to provide help and aid to those "God has made starve and suffer" as you claim? Any major Atheist organized food or medicine mission for those God caused to suffer? Or do you just piss and moan God is the casue, do absolutely nothing, but tell others not to believe in God? Please compare the atheist community to the religious community, measuring what they have done for the suffering in terms of actual food, medical, or sending people to help.

I'm sure you will ignore that challenge!
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Postby humphreys » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:00 pm

greeney2 wrote:This is fun, how long will you last? :wave: I have faith it will not be long, notice I did not say Faith? :angel: They are 2 different things.

I Noticed you had no response to Dawkins having done nothing for all the suffering people God has caused? Any thoughts as to why such hostility from the Atheist crowd, and that this Pastor who lost his Faith, did not have such hosility nor desire to pull believers from their own belief? That he still had their best interrests in his heart, and was kind enough to not badmouth Dawkins for his behavior twards believers?


I'm happy to discuss the thread with you, I'll ignore attempts to derail, that is all.

The thread is not about Dawkins. He is one atheist, I have no idea whether he gives to charities or not.

greeney wrote:Even you have to admit that religions and churches provide Billions of dollars in aid to the starving and medically suffering populations. They are doing something about it.


Yes, that is the part of your post I would have agreed with had you not tried to derail into a personal attack about a completely different thread.

My response is that good people can get together and do good with or without churches.

greeney wrote:Can you give me any example of a humanitian effort spearheaded by atheists, or Dawkins, to provide help and aid to those "God has made starve and suffer" as you claim? Any major Atheist organized food or medicine mission for those God caused to suffer? Or do you just piss and moan God is the casue, do absolutely nothing, but tell others not to believe in God? Please compare the atheist community to the religious community, measuring what they have done for the suffering in terms of actual food, medical, or sending people to help.

I'm sure you will ignore that challenge!


10 seconds on google would show you there are many atheist and humanist organizations of the kind you are referring to:

Here is just one link with a selection.

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

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Postby event_horizon » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:10 pm

greeney2 wrote:I didn't know believers were required to know the Bible from cover to cover, and defend every corner of it to you, for your approval!


For starters, you should at least know a few pages, instead of just listening to what the preacher tells you, like the rest of the sheeple.

Secondly, like I've told you a thousand times, you suck at rebutting the proofs. Simply calling them "distortions" (or "trash"), without actually elaborating on how and what is being distorted, makes you the Loser in the debate -- that's right, with a capital L.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby event_horizon » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:14 pm

humphreys wrote:10 seconds on google would show you there are many atheist and humanist organizations of the kind you are referring to:

Here is just one link with a selection.

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities


I doubt he even knows how to use a search engine.

He thinks his brain (what's left of it) is a search engine. He only looks to himself for all the answers, which is why he constantly makes a fool out of himself.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:10 am

Humphreys, You really are not seriously suggesting those in that link, compare to what churches and religions do, on a worldwide level or scale? Yet you just got done telling me off about how many people in your neighborhood are atheists or do not go to church. If you have such numbers, why such a dismal showing of atheist charities?

Dawkins is very much the subject, since he was the main reason the Paster changed his thinking due to him, plus he was in the video. I did not derail anything, I raised the questions of the concept of "If God is the cause of ALL misery", something Dawkins has convinced the Pastor of, what does Dawkins DO ABOUT IT personally, other than just tell the world God is so bad. I'm still trying to figure out the logic that God does not exist, but all the misery in the world is casued by God??? Its rather stupid, if you do not believe in God. EH tells us everytime God is imaginary, than goes on to tell about, all the bad things God is responsible for. He tells me I loose the debate, when he counterdicts his own belief presenting the proofs. IF GOD IS IMAGINARY, GOD COULDN'T DO ALL THESE BAD THINGS HE QUOTES IN THE PROOFS. Which one is it?


My point raised was that the work of the churches and the religions, through Pastors like this one, are to spearhead humanitain efforts to aid the staving and the afflicted. Does Dawkins devote some of his income or time, from all his atheist books to aid those suffering so much, becasue of God? The Pastor certainly did as a believer, and Pastor of his church. Its about walking the walk, and talking the talk, becasue someone as vehiment about talking God causing misery, would also walk the path of helping those in that misery.

I knew you wouldn't last long ignoring me! Didn't even last 8 hours. :lol: Did you miss me too? :whistle:
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Postby humphreys » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:18 am

greeney2 wrote:Humphreys, You really are not seriously suggesting those in that link, compare to what churches and religions do, on a worldwide level or scale? Yet you just got done telling me off about how many people in your neighborhood are atheists or do not go to church. If you have such numbers, why such a dismal showing of atheist charities?


What dismal showing? You don't even know the figures to make such a claim.

You don't think that brief list I showed you is every atheist charity in existence, do you? You asked for examples, you got them, your point was refuted so deal with it. Now you're changing it to try to get a tit-for-tat run down of atheism versus religion which is meaningless. Just because atheists are less likely to form a group does not mean they are not out there in their numbers doing good and giving money to charities. Pretty impossible to put a number on it.

greeney2 wrote:Dawkins is very much the subject, since he was the main reason the Paster changed his thinking due to him, plus he was in the video.


He said the main reason was the problem of evil, not Dawkins. He likes Dawkins and his work, but the thread is still about the pastor and not about Dawkins, especially about Dawkins charity work which is irrelevant.

greeney2 wrote:I did not derail anything, I raised the questions of the concept of "If God is the cause of ALL misery", something Dawkins has convinced the Pastor of, what does Dawkins DO ABOUT IT personally, other than just tell the world God is so bad.


I have no idea, but it doesn't affect his point one bit if he does nothing.

Dawkin's points stand on their own regardless of whether he is a nice guy or a complete ass. Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? Because that's what you're doing, addressing the person and not the argument. It's fallacious reasoning.

greeney2 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out the logic that God does not exist, but all the misery in the world is casued by God???


Dawkins does not say God is the cause, he says if God is real, then explaining the existence of evil is a problem for believers.

greeney2 wrote:EH tells us everytime God is imaginary, than goes on to tell about, all the bad things God is responsible for. He tells me I loose the debate, when he counterdicts his own belief presenting the proofs. IF GOD IS IMAGINARY, GOD COULDN'T DO ALL THESE BAD THINGS HE QUOTES IN THE PROOFS. Which one is it?


One can believe there is no God whilst addressing logical problems that would arise if we assume he does exist.

It's a simple way of showing potential logical issues with your opponent's position, they use it routinely in court and elsewhere, the term is arguendo - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguendo

Come on greeney, this is f*cking basic stuff, really.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:25 am

You waffle so bad in your arguement you should be in the International House of Pancakes selling them. Pink Elephants don't exist, but if they did, they are why my flowers are trampled. :P Damn Pink Elephants they are to blame. :lol:

Show me facts and figures to proove your point about atheist charities, becasue one on the top of your list did have financial figures, showing current donations of a whopping $34,000 dollars. I looked their websites up! One of the others did have a large staff but no facts or figures, other than claiming they had euros for grants you could appply for. Nothing like food and medicine airlifts I could find. but still atheist organizations combined, was very small in any comparison. I'm not making this a competion, and any help or giving should not be regarded as dismal, however for a group who claims God is the cause of such suffering in the world, I would expect something much more. And for a group that claims such a large percentage of the population, charities are disporportionate to numbers.

The Pastor made a definate statement of being influenced by Dawkins first. That is why Dawkins was there. Secondly, regarding the personal level attack on Dawkins, even the MC of the show pressed the Pastor about that part of Dawkins, being outspoken and very critical towards believers. That is what they call being a Militant Atheist by the way, and many identify themselves proudly as it.

Believers do not have a hard time at all explaining evil. Evil exists in the world in many forms, and it has to do with God giving you and everyone free will. You talk about free thinking, that is nothing unique to athiests, its just part of your ego insisting how right you are, and only you are capable of free thinking. We all have free will, to act and think, or to be decieved by the evil of the world. My point with the Pastors kindness as a person was obvious in your video, he was not on a mission to drag anyone else down, or influence his congregation away from God. He may have lost his Faith, but still had a heart of a good person. You could not say the same thing about Dawkins, yourself, or EH, who all bragg about, if you were able to take someones Faith away. What forces are in play to hurt otherwise secure and content people, who belief and worship God, and live everyday according to their Faith?


Read the words of the Lords prayer and digest them, especially the line about "Led us not into temptation, but deliver us from Evil". How do the Pastor and how do Dawkins fit into that? Christians know evil exists and that there is temptation, it is not hard to explain at all.
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