OraProNobis wrote:The point I am trying to make Humphreys is that morals is a very subjective viewpoint. There was a time where the medical profession deemed homosexuality as something wrong with the brain, much as how they look at child molesters now. At some point, they decided that it wasn't something 'wrong' with the brain, just a difference. Who knows when they may come to that conclusion with sex with children ?
Morals are somewhat subjective in that there are grey areas, but I believe morals can be figured out intellectually.
We can use our intellect to see and understand why things like child molestation and murder are wrong, we don't need a book to tell us. In fact, I am of the belief that we could use a machine to calculate the correct and most moral action in most circumstances based on some key principles, so I don't think they are tangible things created by God, but I don't think they're entirely subjective cultural things we can change willy-nilly either.
Child molestation is extremely harmful to kids in many ways, so it is, and always will be, wrong. I don't think we can say the same about homosexuality - in fact, I fail to see any valid arguments against it outside of religion.
OraProNobis wrote:Your morality says it is OK for two men to have sexual contact, as long as they are both willing. Others would say that there is something very "off" with that, and is morally disgusting to them.
Yes, one of us is using unbiased logical reasoning, and the other is being driven by an emotional response of disgust that is created not by anything real, but by years of cultural brainwashing.
OraProNobis wrote:Why are your morals ok?,
Because they are based in reason.
OraProNobis wrote:but theirs are not?
Because they are based in religiously fueled emotion.
OraProNobis wrote:May I ask you this Humphreys ? Where does the atheist who believes it is wrong to kill , or to molest children get that sense of right and wrong? Where do any humans get their sense of right and wrong? Why are some Humans so hard hearted as to scam 1000 old people a day out of their last dollars if they can? Where does that type of "thinking" or spirit come from ? Why is it that it is the "naughty" sex that turns on so many souls ? Why is it that thrill of doing something "wrong" the rush for some?
There is not a simple answer to that. Nature and nurture certainly both come into play, as well as culture.
For the most part good behaviour has been drilled into us throughout the years and is an evolved trait, as it is more advantageous to work with others than against them. However, occasionally we get our morals wrong, meaning we do something that we have always done which now feels "right" but through reason we can clearly see that it is wrong, an example is your irrational emotional response to the idea of homosexuality (eg complete disgust).
It's similar to where we get our sense of fear and danger from. Most of the time that sense is reliable, we all know not to jump from a great height without a flying aid of some sort, but occasionally it misfunctions, and we get people scared of harmless bugs and so on. Again, just like with homosexuality, we can recognize it is an irrational response and fix our brain to respond to it the right way. We use reason to judge the threat as not a real threat, and then we train our brain to respond to it correctly in future.
OraProNobis wrote:Does it not make you think that perhaps there are spiritual things at play ? That there maybe Good and evil?
No, if that were the case, everyone's sense of morals would be the same and not so cultural and subject to change.
OraProNobis wrote:One more question Humphreys. If your son is watching you talk down about people who believe in God and Jesus, like they are a bunch of fools, but at some point really thinks there maybe something to this whole "God and Jesus" idea, and it could indeed be a reality. Would he actually feel like he could exercise his own free thinking and become a Christian , without seriously offending his father who he loves very much. Will you look at your son with the same loving acceptance if he comes to you one day and says "hey dad, I want to become a Christian" , as you would if he came up to you as a young man and said "hey dad, I'm going to marry David, because we have been lovers for the last 4 years". Please be honest now . Would it totally upset you if he came to you saying either ?
I've had this discussion with frrostedman before, and I told him, if my son can defend his position rationally against my questions and discuss with me why he believes in a way that makes sense, I'd respect him for it.
If he told me he just "has faith", I'd be disappointed, but I'd still love him obviously, there's not a lot he could do to change that to be honest.
It's not so important what conclusion he comes to but how and why he comes to it. I would hope whatever he comes to believe he doesn't believe with irrational certainty, though, as that makes no sense in a world where nothing is clear.
OraProNobis wrote:I'm trying to understand you Humphreys , and I don't want to judge you, just merely understand, and try to point out some thoughts you may want to reflect on.
I'm sorry but after some of the things you've said I find it hard to believe you're doing anything other than think of the best way to convert me.