The Black Vault

OraProNobis wrote:The point I am trying to make Humphreys is that morals is a very subjective viewpoint. There was a time where the medical profession deemed homosexuality as something wrong with the brain, much as how they look at child molesters now. At some point, they decided that it wasn't something 'wrong' with the brain, just a difference. Who knows when they may come to that conclusion with sex with children ?

Morals are somewhat subjective in that there are grey areas, but I believe morals can be figured out intellectually.

We can use our intellect to see and understand why things like child molestation and murder are wrong, we don't need a book to tell us. In fact, I am of the belief that we could use a machine to calculate the correct and most moral action in most circumstances based on some key principles, so I don't think they are tangible things created by God, but I don't think they're entirely subjective cultural things we can change willy-nilly either.

Child molestation is extremely harmful to kids in many ways, so it is, and always will be, wrong. I don't think we can say the same about homosexuality - in fact, I fail to see any valid arguments against it outside of religion.

OraProNobis wrote:Your morality says it is OK for two men to have sexual contact, as long as they are both willing. Others would say that there is something very "off" with that, and is morally disgusting to them.

Yes, one of us is using unbiased logical reasoning, and the other is being driven by an emotional response of disgust that is created not by anything real, but by years of cultural brainwashing.

OraProNobis wrote:Why are your morals ok?,

Because they are based in reason.

OraProNobis wrote:but theirs are not?

Because they are based in religiously fueled emotion.

OraProNobis wrote:May I ask you this Humphreys ? Where does the atheist who believes it is wrong to kill , or to molest children get that sense of right and wrong? Where do any humans get their sense of right and wrong? Why are some Humans so hard hearted as to scam 1000 old people a day out of their last dollars if they can? Where does that type of "thinking" or spirit come from ? Why is it that it is the "naughty" sex that turns on so many souls ? Why is it that thrill of doing something "wrong" the rush for some?

There is not a simple answer to that. Nature and nurture certainly both come into play, as well as culture.

For the most part good behaviour has been drilled into us throughout the years and is an evolved trait, as it is more advantageous to work with others than against them. However, occasionally we get our morals wrong, meaning we do something that we have always done which now feels "right" but through reason we can clearly see that it is wrong, an example is your irrational emotional response to the idea of homosexuality (eg complete disgust).

It's similar to where we get our sense of fear and danger from. Most of the time that sense is reliable, we all know not to jump from a great height without a flying aid of some sort, but occasionally it misfunctions, and we get people scared of harmless bugs and so on. Again, just like with homosexuality, we can recognize it is an irrational response and fix our brain to respond to it the right way. We use reason to judge the threat as not a real threat, and then we train our brain to respond to it correctly in future.

OraProNobis wrote:Does it not make you think that perhaps there are spiritual things at play ? That there maybe Good and evil?

No, if that were the case, everyone's sense of morals would be the same and not so cultural and subject to change.

OraProNobis wrote:One more question Humphreys. If your son is watching you talk down about people who believe in God and Jesus, like they are a bunch of fools, but at some point really thinks there maybe something to this whole "God and Jesus" idea, and it could indeed be a reality. Would he actually feel like he could exercise his own free thinking and become a Christian , without seriously offending his father who he loves very much. Will you look at your son with the same loving acceptance if he comes to you one day and says "hey dad, I want to become a Christian" , as you would if he came up to you as a young man and said "hey dad, I'm going to marry David, because we have been lovers for the last 4 years". Please be honest now . Would it totally upset you if he came to you saying either ?

I've had this discussion with frrostedman before, and I told him, if my son can defend his position rationally against my questions and discuss with me why he believes in a way that makes sense, I'd respect him for it.

If he told me he just "has faith", I'd be disappointed, but I'd still love him obviously, there's not a lot he could do to change that to be honest.

It's not so important what conclusion he comes to but how and why he comes to it. I would hope whatever he comes to believe he doesn't believe with irrational certainty, though, as that makes no sense in a world where nothing is clear.

OraProNobis wrote:I'm trying to understand you Humphreys , and I don't want to judge you, just merely understand, and try to point out some thoughts you may want to reflect on.

I'm sorry but after some of the things you've said I find it hard to believe you're doing anything other than think of the best way to convert me.

I've had this discussion with frrostedman before, and I told him, if my son can defend his position rationally against my questions and discuss with me why he believes in a way that makes sense, I'd respect him for it.

If he told me he just "has faith", I'd be disappointed, but I'd still love him obviously, there's not a lot he could do to change that to be honest.

It's not so important what conclusion he comes to but how and why he comes to it. I would hope whatever he comes to believe he doesn't believe with irrational certainty, though, as that makes no sense in a world where nothing is clear.

So in other words you will never let him have peace with his own decision, it requires your approval! Your questions just like here,e would be argumentative and never give in, you would be relentless just like you are here, and NEVER acknowlege his new found faith. Better than that you will be cutting him off at the pass, from ever getting to that point while he is not an adult. No way would you permit him to goto church with a girl friend. I hope you realize the life you are forging for him, in that he will always be avoiding or shunning off close relationships, when he is at dating age if he finds a nice girlfriend who is a believer. Reminds me of how Johovah's Whitnesses alienate their kids in school, having them sent home at any party, and not allowing intraction with others not Johovah's Whitnesses.

Oh jeez, here comes greeney to twist everything I have said.

Your post doesn't deserve a response.

Oh Geez, look who is in denial now. You think you know all the answers, your child is just starting school. This is one of those things us old timers have seen happen many times. Not just what I said about you, but with other problems and dysfunctions at home as well. Kids do sabotage relationships, and do grow up in household where things are "different", becasue they live guarding things they do now want there friends to see within their homelife. Call it embarrassemt, or just knowing they DO NOT FEEL NORMAL, having friends see things that their piers will not understand. Like their parents quirks, alcoholism, holdhold is a mess, dysfunctions of all sorts, you name it. You put your kid in a pretty crappy position starting out school, with your atheism baggage, and heading into growing up around kids who mostly all have some religious affiliation. He only knows what you have taught him, and he will start finding you are "different", and that that difference is something he will not wear well, he will live guarding it, it will affect his school years by feeling alienated.

How can you think of denying it, you yourself are alienated.

Humpreys wrote:
And then we have Ora with his implications that I'd support sex with children in the future because I don't think homosexuality is wrong...

Wow, talk about twisting what I have said

I also said it again in another post that I did not mean to imply that, but instead you choose to ignore that and blame me for something that is not true.

What I said is that their are atheists who do think it is fine for children to have sex, and would like to see it made legal for adults to have sex with children. While you and I may both think that is disgusting, because of so called "intellectual " reasoning, I also see two men or two women, or 3 or more for that matter, having sex together, my intellectual reasoning tells me it is WRONG !! It tells me it is pure lust, and is not a healthy way at all to express sexuality.

Now you can judge me for stating my reasoning on that, But I tell you there are atheists out there who would challenge you on your beliefs and reasoning why you think children should not be allowed "the pleasure" (as they see it) of having sex , and there is no reason why they should wait to enjoy that pleasure.

Because you and event_horizon might not think its ok, doesn't mean other athiests don't.

That goes to say the same for Christians. Many Christians think its morally ok to be gay, but I feel they are not following Christs doctrine at all, and are twisting it to suit their ideologies. Christ is speaking out today to his visionaries about the "watered down versions" of His teachings.


Event_horizon wrote:

Where exactly in the Bible does it say that it's wrong to have sex with children? Sure doesn't seem like it does, since your priests have sex with little boys all the time. Not only is it child molestation, but it's homosexual as well. Double whammy.

So don't come in here trying to preach to us about this stuff when your own people do it.

Like I said, religion has no bearing on how people behave.

Oh good grief, is that the best you can come up with?

Obviously some priests have sinned grievously against children and the lord, but it certainly isn't every priest .

IT is wrong, no question about it, and the church is approaching it much more seriously than it used to.

That problem is rampant in society, and in the upper echelons of society , as well as the world of sports. Guess what, atheists have that problem as well, so should I say that every person who is an atheist obviously is full of it, because of the vile acts of some?

Humphreys wrote:
I'm sorry but after some of the things you've said I find it hard to believe you're doing anything other than think of the best way to convert me.

If you, by chance, you are ever converted, it won't be any of us who does it Humphreys, it will be by the Holy Spirit . We just tried to warn you not to turn your heart away from the Holy Spirit, and to open yourself up to the possibilities.

You have twisted what I have said, and made it out to be something it was not. This is supposed to be your way of "intellectually" debating ?

I won't be wasting anymore time debating . Its pointless.

OraProNobis wrote:I tell you there are atheists out there who would challenge you on your beliefs and reasoning why you think children should not be allowed "the pleasure" (as they see it) of having sex , and there is no reason why they should wait to enjoy that pleasure.

Because you and event_horizon might not think its ok, doesn't mean other athiests don't.

Along with certain atheists, there are also certain Christians, Muslims, politicians, priests, nuns, executives, burger flippers, black, white, and purple people that think it's okay too.

So in one breath, you're singling out atheists, then in the next breath you say this:

OraProNobis wrote:Obviously some priests have sinned grievously against children and the lord, but it certainly isn't every priest .

IT is wrong, no question about it, and the church is approaching it much more seriously than it used to.

That problem is rampant in society, and in the upper echelons of society , as well as the world of sports. Guess what, atheists have that problem as well, so should I say that every person who is an atheist obviously is full of it, because of the vile acts of some?

So what is it? Is it a problem only created by atheists? Or is it a problem that's rampant in all walks of society? Make up your mind.

And btw, I didn't say it was "every priest"...geez are you a close relative of greeny?

OraProNobis wrote:Oh good grief

I must be talking to Charlie Brown. I knew something was up.

greeney2 wrote:Oh Geez, look who is in denial now. You think you know all the answers, your child is just starting school. This is one of those things us old timers have seen happen many times. Not just what I said about you, but with other problems and dysfunctions at home as well. Kids do sabotage relationships, and do grow up in household where things are "different", becasue they live guarding things they do now want there friends to see within their homelife. Call it embarrassemt, or just knowing they DO NOT FEEL NORMAL, having friends see things that their piers will not understand. Like their parents quirks, alcoholism, holdhold is a mess, dysfunctions of all sorts, you name it. You put your kid in a pretty crappy position starting out school, with your atheism baggage, and heading into growing up around kids who mostly all have some religious affiliation. He only knows what you have taught him, and he will start finding you are "different", and that that difference is something he will not wear well, he will live guarding it, it will affect his school years by feeling alienated.

How can you think of denying it, you yourself are alienated.

You are being downright offensive now Greeney, and you're borderline crossing the line here.

Atheism and agnosticism actually comprise the majority beliefs here, from my school days I remember the only kid who suffered and was made fun of was the very religious boy who couldn't get kids to go round his house to play because his parents made them pray. Let's get things straight, religion is not the norm here, and going to church is even less common for kids. If anything, bringing him up religious is what will end up making him alienated. None of that is relevant, though, as not living a lie is more important than "fitting in". What a terrible message of conformance you are trying to set out. Hey, maybe we shouldn't encourage him to excel either because it might not make him Mr. Average with the best chance of being most popular.

The reasoning of an idiot

None of those dysfunctions are present in this house thank-you-very-f*cking-much.

All of the dysfunctions you are talking about come from religious indoctrination, not teaching your kids basic critical thinking skills. The problems happen when the poor child happens to discover he is homosexual, as an example, and lives with an intolerant Christian family who will not accept him for what he is.

I don't live in the USA anymore, you know absolutely diddly-squat of the culture here, so back off.

For the record, my son is about to start school, and he does not even know what atheism, religion, or God is yet, as it's not high on our priority list for him right now, and we haven't felt the urge to indoctrinate him at the age where kids are most susceptible to mental manipulation, as we see with Christianity and Islam, which is pretty deranged in itself.

OraProNobis wrote:What I said is that their are atheists who do think it is fine for children to have sex, and would like to see it made legal for adults to have sex with children.

There are people of all beliefs who think that, as EH says, you are singling out atheism as if there is some connection between lacking belief in God and molesting kids. As has already been pointed out to you, there is a major problem with that amongst priests, so this is certainly not an atheism thing.

OraProNobis wrote:While you and I may both think that is disgusting, because of so called "intellectual " reasoning, I also see two men or two women, or 3 or more for that matter, having sex together, my intellectual reasoning tells me it is WRONG !! It tells me it is pure lust, and is not a healthy way at all to express sexuality.

Okay, let's discuss it intellectually then.

If it is practiced safely, amongst the willing, why is group sex inherently wrong?

It's clearly not your thing, that doesn't make it wrong though. It's certainly not harming you, so why not just stay out of others business and let them get on with it.

OraProNobis wrote:Now you can judge me for stating my reasoning on that,

You didn't state any reasoning, you're still using emotion.

OraProNobis wrote:But I tell you there are atheists out there who would challenge you on your beliefs and reasoning why you think children should not be allowed "the pleasure" (as they see it) of having sex , and there is no reason why they should wait to enjoy that pleasure.

So what if they challenge me? What does any of this have to do with atheism, apart from the fact yu keep writing "atheism" before talking of molestation.

You realize some Christians are in disagreement about the Bible too, right, and have used and abused it to do terrible things throughout history. Sick people will do sick things with or without religion.

OraProNobis wrote:Because you and event_horizon might not think its ok, doesn't mean other athiests don't.

I don't know which atheists you're speaking of generally but there is no good justification for it.

Why don't we get some priests in and see how they justify their molestation of kids.

OraProNobis wrote:If you, by chance, you are ever converted, it won't be any of us who does it Humphreys, it will be by the Holy Spirit .

Why are you praying for me again then?

OraProNobis wrote:I won't be wasting anymore time debating . Its pointless.

You weren't debating anyway. Retardedly hammering your fingers on the keyboard to make the words "atheism" and "child sex" appear together is not debate.

Humphreys wrote:
Why don't we get some priests in and see how they justify their molestation of kids.

They don't justify it , because I think they know it is wrong, but have allowed themselves to fall prey to that temptation, therefore giving satan an open door, to continue to tempt them. They know full well it is wrong, but succumb to the temptation. I believe there are some evil spirits at play here, but they are guilty for not fighting it harder, and continuing on with the sin.

The mercy of Christ is very very gracious for those who are truly sorry for their sins , but I pity the poor souls who have harmed children, without true sincere sorrow and repentance,as well as reparation and penance, because eternity in damnation is a loooong time.

Postby humphreys » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:14 am

OraProNobis wrote:What I said is that their are atheists who do think it is fine for children to have sex, and would like to see it made legal for adults to have sex with children.



There are people of all beliefs who think that, as EH says, you are singling out atheism as if there is some connection between lacking belief in God and molesting kids. As has already been pointed out to you, there is a major problem with that amongst priests, so this is certainly not an atheism thing.

OraProNobis wrote:While you and I may both think that is disgusting, because of so called "intellectual " reasoning, I also see two men or two women, or 3 or more for that matter, having sex together, my intellectual reasoning tells me it is WRONG !! It tells me it is pure lust, and is not a healthy way at all to express sexuality.



Okay, let's discuss it intellectually then.

If it is practiced safely, amongst the willing, why is group sex inherently wrong?

It's clearly not your thing, that doesn't make it wrong though. It's certainly not harming you, so why not just stay out of others business and let them get on with it.

OraProNobis wrote:Now you can judge me for stating my reasoning on that,



You didn't state any reasoning, you're still using emotion.

Right, I am using "emotion" to say that orgies with a group of people are morally corrupt, but you are using "reasoning" to say they are perfectly fine.

So let me ask you, if your son walks into a room when he is visiting a friend, to see 6 adults all naked getting it on, and he will ,with reason, feel the spirit of lust , and he comes home, and asks you about it, what is your reply? Lemme guess, you'll explain to him that is just for adults, and when he grows up , and turns 18 he can do that as well.

How truly sad that you would choose to turn your back on God, but even much sadder that you would deny your son the opportunity to grow in Gods wisdom, and moral purity.

Humphreys wrote:
Why are you praying for me again then?

Because you need prayer, and conversion, and I am praying that you will open up your heart to our Father in heaven, and the mercy of His Son, Jesus Christ, for the sake of your soul, and that of your family, especially those poor children who have no choice in being brought up in a Godless home, and who's little hearts and minds will grow into accepting offensive behavior as normal and ok.

Humphreys wrote:
You weren't debating anyway. Retardedly hammering your fingers on the keyboard to make the words "atheism" and "child sex" appear together is not debate.

It is actually a reality what I am speaking of, and you just can't face the fact that it is orchestrated by SOME of the athiests who indulge in same sex sexuality, and wild orgies, and have no respect for the sexual act whatsoever, except for the lustful pleasure it brings. The kinkier the better . And judging from a few responses you have made, you obviously fall into the ideas of some kinky practices being totally fine with "adults". Only problem is you fail to mention that these adults have children, and these children have impressionable minds and hearts, and are totally being distorted spiritually and mentally ,and emotionally , by these adults, who raise them.

You can call me retarded for pointing out the obvious all you want, because its clear to anyone with a little God given wisdom, where the" intellectual "and "emotional" reasoning lies, and it isn't with your side of seeing things.

I will pray fervently for you , and especially your children . Deep down in your soul Humphreys, you know right from wrong, and you must wonder where real love comes from, how it came to be, and you know as well, that ALL the miracles and apparitions that have taken place over the centuries are not Hysteria. You can run away from the truth, but that doesn't change what is truth.

OraProNobis wrote:They don't justify it , because I think they know it is wrong, but have allowed themselves to fall prey to that temptation, therefore giving satan an open door, to continue to tempt them. They know full well it is wrong, but succumb to the temptation. I believe there are some evil spirits at play here, but they are guilty for not fighting it harder, and continuing on with the sin.

Of course, whenever anyone does anything wrong, evil spirits are at play, makes perfect sense in believer logic.

OraProNobis wrote:The mercy of Christ is very very gracious for those who are truly sorry for their sins , but I pity the poor souls who have harmed children, without true sincere sorrow and repentance,as well as reparation and penance, because eternity in damnation is a loooong time.

Conveniently, this allows us to do pretty much anything we want and get away with it, as long as we apologize.

Yet it's atheism that fails to stop immoral behavior. Believer logic strikes again.

OraProNobis wrote:Right, I am using "emotion" to say that orgies with a group of people are morally corrupt, but you are using "reasoning" to say they are perfectly fine.

Yes.

OraProNobis wrote:So let me ask you, if your son walks into a room when he is visiting a friend, to see 6 adults all naked getting it on, and he will ,with reason, feel the spirit of lust , and he comes home, and asks you about it, what is your reply?

You're still using emotion. My son is 4, I'm pretty sure he is incapable of feeling lust at this stage.

What age shall we assume he is so that your argument sounds less ridiculous?

14? For one, I'd be angry at the parents because what they are doing is inappropriate in a situation where my son could walk in on them. I'd have words with them about that for sure. Masturbation, for example, certainly isn't evil, but you don't do it in front of minors, right (well, you might, but you'd probably say sorry to God afterwards)? Orgies would work the same way.

So what is my reply when he asks about it? It would depend on the question, right?

I doubt he'll ask what it is, as at 14 he's bound to know. If he asks whether it's okay? I'll explain the risks, that it's certainly not for everyone, that it needs to be done safely with consenting adults, and that long-term he's likely to be happier if he settles down and raises a family.

OraProNobis wrote:Lemme guess, you'll explain to him that is just for adults, and when he grows up , and turns 18 he can do that as well.

You're living in a fantasy world. You're talking as if the kid won't have a clue what sex is but assume he'll experience the feeling of lust if he sees an orgy???

You don't have kids, right? God, I hope not.

OraProNobis wrote:How truly sad that you would choose to turn your back on God, but even much sadder that you would deny your son the opportunity to grow in Gods wisdom, and moral purity.

How truly sad that you believe in, and want others to believe, a being whose existence you cannot even offer any evidence for.

OraProNobis wrote:It is actually a reality what I am speaking of, and you just can't face the fact that it is orchestrated by SOME of the athiests who indulge in same sex sexuality, and wild orgies, and have no respect for the sexual act whatsoever, except for the lustful pleasure it brings.

You really are a twisted individual

OraProNobis wrote:I will pray fervently for you , and especially your children . Deep down in your soul Humphreys, you know right from wrong, and you must wonder where real love comes from, how it came to be, and you know as well, that ALL the miracles and apparitions that have taken place over the centuries are not Hysteria. You can run away from the truth, but that doesn't change what is truth.

Ah, so now I KNOW that God exists and I'm just in denial? I KNOW the apparitions are real?

Again, your true colours show. Your pretend to want to "understand me", when really, in your mind, you already know what it is I believe and why!

How do you reconcile being a good person in God's eyes when you're such a disingenuous phony? How many people do you reckon you've turned away from your God through your horrible behaviour?

You should probably stop before you turn me into a Satanist or something you're doing so badly.