The Black Vault

You only "get" what you selectively want to get. The point is made perfectly that the experiment is tried on a very controlled and repeatable process in medicine that has a equally expected complication rate. I know you are not stupid, so the concept of the survival rate, and complication rate, decade to decade has improved, an as medical break throughs came, so did those improvements. Your study in terms of a monitoring of results, prooves that medicine, like manufacturing products, strives to "Control the process". That process is repeated, and the same techniques and practices, make the rate of complications predictable, and limited to 51-52%.

Now the question is how was prayer affective during the entire evolution of heart or other medical proceedures, that prayers led to new discoveries, new technology, etc. etc. I could stand next to Niagara Falls with a million people praying for the water to stop, but the results are pretty predictiable arn't they? It isn't much of an experiment when the results are so predictable, the effect would not be measureable.

How do you know that prayers did not led to some genius inventing the artifical heart? That prayers did not enlighten researchers to deeper and more productive thoughts and processes? You re entitled to your opinion, but this study is not conclusive of a thing. What were the complications, and were serious life threatening complications give the same weight as a minor complication that was routine? Nothing is charcterized about the severity of complications. Nothing was characterized as to the prayers themselves, where they were done, how, as a group, individually, in a church, while driving down the highway, or just going to the bathroom. The study is not very specific. On the other hand, what infomation was given as to the total healing time of those who did not have complications? Were they all a sucess, how many died, and was the total average time of healing improved from decadses ago?

I get what the study was completly, and with all due respect, what athiest would believe figures that showed a measurable result of imporvment based on prayers? Maybe everyone prayed for everyone to do their best, and it worked because the compications were all consistant with expected results.

Humphreys wrote:
Is justice really being served when I torture my own creations who did not turn out a certain way, who did not worship me correctly, or simply didn't believe in me? Is that justice, or is it in fact barbaric insanity on my part?

If you created your creation with the idea of love being center of their existence, but they do not even acknowledge you who created them , and kill each other all in the name of pride,control and greed.Then as well , have no respect for the act that creates more life , and no respect for the child created through this act. Perhaps it would be barbaric insanity to let this this life form you created to continue on with some morbid and evil practices ?

Do you think God does not see how science has manipulated with His creations , both in food and in the animal kingdoms? Do you think he condones that some scientists are willing to use live human bait as their guinea pigs in their 'secret' labs, to try and play God, by making humans to never die.

You Humphreys, like many atheists, have made science your God, and think it will be the key to everlasting life , and that is a grave error. I could go on to refute other points you have made , but I feel my time is more wisely spent praying for you, and others of similar mindset. Please understand that these are prayers out of love and concern.

I understand to a degree what some of your concerns are, but I really don't think you have imagined totally what it would be like if you had created a species, and given them so much, only to have the many mock your commandments, and live only for self, all the while mocking you . God has been much more merciful than you understand at this point, and He has ALWAYS given fair warning , and a chance to repent.

I will keep you in my prayers Humphreys, along with your wife and your son, and I will stay away from debating for a time. I totally respect your right to your way of thinking, and that is your own free will . I hope you can respect my right to my own free will to believe in what I see as truth, and to care for you and your family and how your souls fit into that truth. I would never want to see harm come to any of you because you do not believe in God, and I hope you would not want to see harm come to those who do believe in the Holy Trinity.

As for the Almighty, He gets to decide what is just , if His mercy and truth is continuously rejected in favor of false Gods and teachings. He is a tremendously merciful God, but also a very just judge.

greeney2 wrote:Sorry no cigar for you EH, not one person said this was proof God does not exist, except you and Humphreys.

Awww boo hoo.

Boo hoo your church proof fissiled out and morphed into a prayer argument. Guess the proof was pretty stupid afterall, it lost attention from the first page. Oh well, you still have 52 more. I mean 49 more, plus 3 bonus proofs.

greeney2 wrote:You only "get" what you selectively want to get. The point is made perfectly that the experiment is tried on a very controlled and repeatable process in medicine that has a equally expected complication rate. I know you are not stupid, so the concept of the survival rate, and complication rate, decade to decade has improved, an as medical break throughs came, so did those improvements. Your study in terms of a monitoring of results, prooves that medicine, like manufacturing products, strives to "Control the process". That process is repeated, and the same techniques and practices, make the rate of complications predictable, and limited to 51-52%.

Yeeees...and then we take that replicable and predictable process and we see if prayer can change the outcome.

It doesn't.

What's not to get here?

greeney2 wrote:Now the question is how was prayer affective during the entire evolution of heart or other medical proceedures, that prayers led to new discoveries, new technology, etc. etc.

Oh I see where you're going with this now...

LOL

That has to be the biggest rationalization I have ever seen for a failed prayer effect

greeney2 wrote:I could stand next to Niagara Falls with a million people praying for the water to stop, but the results are pretty predictiable arn't they? It isn't much of an experiment when the results are so predictable, the effect would not be measureable.

It's predictable because there is no God coming down to change that affect, silly!

You're so close to actually getting it and becoming an atheist right now. If God were real, he could change those predictable processes, that's the whole point. The fact we can predict them proves it is just nature at work here, no outside intervention. No God.

OraProNobis wrote:

Humphreys wrote:
Is justice really being served when I torture my own creations who did not turn out a certain way, who did not worship me correctly, or simply didn't believe in me? Is that justice, or is it in fact barbaric insanity on my part?

If you created your creation with the idea of love being center of their existence, but they do not even acknowledge you who created them , and kill each other all in the name of pride,control and greed.Then as well , have no respect for the act that creates more life , and no respect for the child created through this act. Perhaps it would be barbaric insanity to let this this life form you created to continue on with some morbid and evil practices ?

But as an all-knowing being you'd know how they were going to turn out before you created them.

Why not just create humans version 2 from the start? Or even better, create a species that even though it has free will, it won't horribly disappoint you at every step so that you have to torture it in the afterlife.

OraProNobis wrote:You Humphreys, like many atheists, have made science your God, and think it will be the key to everlasting life , and that is a grave error. I could go on to refute other points you have made , but I feel my time is more wisely spent praying for you, and others of similar mindset. Please understand that these are prayers out of love and concern.

Sure, and I will keep trying to educate you also out of love and concern.

Science is not my God, either, and I don't know that it will ever bring everlasting life to anyone, especially since we're likely to be wiped out by a stupid religious fuelled war before we get that advanced. I do think that, rather than religion being our saviour, our only chance is to at least put enough legitimate doubt into the minds of the irrationally devout that they will stop killing and harming in the name of their beliefs.

OraProNobis wrote: I understand to a degree what some of your concerns are, but I really don't think you have imagined totally what it would be like if you had created a species, and given them so much, only to have the many mock your commandments, and live only for self, all the while mocking you .

I know one thing. If I created a species that I wanted to act a certain way, I would make it absolutely completely and utterly clear that I exist in the first place. Then there is no excuse. There would be no faith, or ambiguity, or people misinterpreting my messages, no squabbling and competing religions with different views.

It would be crystal clear what I wanted, too. I know you are going to imply God has done that, but it's a lie. The difference of opinion on who God is and what he wants, and the number of unbelievers in the world make it clear he has not done this, if he indeed exists.

Where is he, Ora? If we believe in the Bible he certainly seemed to be around an awful lot way back in the day, what with the crazy stuff that seemed to be happening on a regular basis. So, where did he go?

Humphreys wrote:
Where is he, Ora? If we believe in the Bible he certainly seemed to be around an awful lot way back in the day, what with the crazy stuff that seemed to be happening on a regular basis. So, where did he go?

He has been here along along Humphreys. When He gave Moses the commandments, when He was born to a virgin , and walked the earth , teaching ,and healing, and fulfilling scripture of His death on a cross for the atonement of our sins.

He has sent messengers and prophets, and continues to do so to this day. He has allowed the Virgin Mary to come and give messages on His behalf ,and Jesus Himself appears and gives messages. Many still do not believe , as well as there are evil entities that wish to squash the real truth, and confuse people with false messages,and lies.

He is not finished with showing us of His real existence and what He wishes from us. The great illumination of conscience will happen as well, soon.

How sad that you would say He has never given humanity any proof of His existence. It would be better to say that He has never given you any proof that you find worthy of believing, but that does not make it true that He has never given us proof.

God bless you Humphreys, I do appreciate your care and concern for us believers, but trust me when I say , we do NOT want to hurt you. At least I don't, and will respect your freedom to believe as you see fit. I will still hold you and your family up to the loving heart of Jesus everyday in my prayers, and I hope you are not offended by that.

I think I pegged you just right Humphreys, you pick and choose a path that suits your arguement. On this thread, and the new prayer thread, you just counterdicted you own aruements doing the complete opposite in each one. You don't even understand how your stance here was turned around on the Proof 1 & 2 debate.

Why is it a rationalization to conclude prayers have played a part in the evolution of all medicine? Any Harvard studies to proove that wrong?

greeney2 wrote:I think I pegged you just right Humphreys, you pick and choose a path that suits your arguement. On this thread, and the new prayer thread, you just counterdicted you own aruements doing the complete opposite in each one. You don't even understand how your stance here was turned around on the Proof 1 & 2 debate.

Care to elaborate?

greeney2 wrote:Why is it a rationalization to conclude prayers have played a part in the evolution of all medicine? Any Harvard studies to proove that wrong?

It's a rationalization because it has nothing to do with the success rate of those prayed for, versus those not prayed for. It's not relevant, it's a deflection, which in your mind you have rationalized as a valid refutation of the study.

The test is simple. If prayer works, those prayed for will fare better than those not prayed for. So scientists conducted an experiment to test that very claim.

You take a bunch of people, pray for some, and do not pray for others. The result? No difference either way. Do you get what that implies? When someone gets sick, they may get better, and they may not, but praying for them will not make it more likely they will get better than doing absolutely nothing.

Praying for loved ones to get better is just humans satisfying their need to exercise control over a situation in which they have none.

OraProNobis wrote:How sad that you would say He has never given humanity any proof of His existence. It would be better to say that He has never given you any proof that you find worthy of believing, but that does not make it true that He has never given us proof.

If he has given us proof, why do even the most devout have real moments of doubt? Why can even the strongest believers become atheists?

Why does the Bible say we need faith, if we have proof?

OraProNobis wrote:God bless you Humphreys, I do appreciate your care and concern for us believers, but trust me when I say , we do NOT want to hurt you. At least I don't, and will respect your freedom to believe as you see fit. I will still hold you and your family up to the loving heart of Jesus everyday in my prayers, and I hope you are not offended by that.

I'm not offended, and you're free to pray for me however you like, but if you are set on helping people I'd rather you devote your time to helping those in real need in a way that will actually serve them. Feeding the hungry, for instance.

A difference is made through hard work, not prayer.

I am sure if God wants me to come to him, he's quite capable of causing that anyway, and will not wait for a prayer from you. If he has his plan, it seems unlikely he would change that based on your request.