The Black Vault

I'm on board with them

This is a board with precious few unbelievers of any kind, it's hardly a surprise the believers aren't accepting them as true. The points are getting across though, I'm sure somewhere in greeney's mind SOMETHING is hitting home.

Humphreys wrote:

This is a board with precious few unbelievers of any kind, it's hardly a surprise the believers aren't accepting them as true. The points are getting across though, I'm sure somewhere in greeney's mind SOMETHING is hitting home.

Maybe many points are getting across . Maybe the point that to say God is imaginary is a little far fetched given the 1000's of miracles that even top scientists and doctors cannot explain. Look into the history of Lourdes and Fatima ,Humphreys, as well as the apparitions of Our Lady in Rwanda before the great genocide. Look into the documented healings through the intercessory prayer of Saint Pio, one of which some young man has already testified to on this board.

Maybe , just maybe something is actually hitting home with the atheists and unbelievers, but pride prevents them from saying so?

Like greeney said humphreys, we only talk about God because we don't want to see anyone turn from the reality of eternal life in heaven with Him. If we didn't care we would never talk about it, and never pray for any of you. Are you suggesting we quit caring about souls and their future?

Someday your pride and fear will melt away Humphreys, and you will see the truth, and you will be grateful that you can give that truth to your precious son. It won't matter who was right and who was wrong, because this isn't about silly pride. It will matter that you have acknowledged where love in our hearts is born from , and how great the mercy and love of Jesus is.

I've looked plenty into the so called miracle healings. There are hundreds of well known faith healers in the US as well, and their miracles are just as phoney.

Nothing more than the power of suggestion - the placebo effect.The vast, vast majority of these "healings" are not healings at all, meaning the people believe they are better temporarily but actually are not, and come to realize such in time once the placebo has worn off, but you don't hear about that.

Prayer has been scientifically tested - it failed; made no difference.

Why would a loving God require prayer or travel to some distant location just to get better anyway? A real God would help everyone in real need in they were sincere. But we have babies dying of cancer and nothing we can do about it other than to fund science and look for a real cure.

Ever wonder why God doesn't heal amputees?

And then we have the Bible telling us that dashing babies against rocks is a good thing.

I wonder why you would assume I will turn to God? I can't think of a more pessimistic thing to teach my son, that his grandparents are probably burning in hell.

Have you yourself ever wondered whether it's all just a big lie? Or would you be unable to face such a harsh truth and prefer to live in the comfort of that lie?

I wonder if you realize how different things can be outside the US. Here in England, for example, we tend to look at very religious people with surprise and wonder "Why/how does he believe THAT?". They are in the minority. Atheists and agnostics are the majority here. Do you wonder why religion and religious belief is so localized to certain countries/areas? How does a legitimate God have so few indians following him, for instance, but so many white Americans?

Humphreys wrote:
Prayer has been scientifically tested - it failed; made no difference.

That is not what i was told. Watched a whole documentary on studies done that proved the opposite. Also found this below..from this link

http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=53

Is Prayer Clinically Effective?*
David G. Myers

Anecdotes and research on prayer’s clinical effectiveness has become big news of late. A 1997 Christianity Today cover story (preceding a Newsweek prayer cover story) explains “how physicians and scientists are discovering the healing power of prayer.” Although the magazine acknowledges that “petitionary prayer is not 100 percent effective” (imagine if it were), it welcomes the conclusion of Georgetown University internist and prayer researcher Dale Matthews: “Prayer is good for you. The medical effects of faith on health are not a matter of faith, but of science.”

Humphreys wrote:
Why would a loving God require prayer or travel to some distant location just to get better anyway? A real God would help everyone in real need in they were sincere. But we have babies dying of cancer and nothing we can do about it other than to fund science and look for a real cure.

God works in many ways, for reasons far beyond what we can understand or know. He does not always require great distances to be traveled. As far as funding science for a cure for cancer, how has that been working for us so far? Science and the powers behind it are a corrupt bunch who will take the money, and stifle the real cures. Far too much money to be made by the greedy,who think themselves God , and answer only to themselves, for most of them to care about actually putting out the cure. That is until they can find the way to make another astronomical dollar from it.

How do we know that God in His infinite mercy does not take up those souls of innocent babies to a far better place , where they can pray in spirit with the angels, for the souls of their families and loved ones left on earth?

Humphreys wrote:
And then we have the Bible telling us that dashing babies against rocks is a good thing.

Not sure what bible you read, but I have never came across anything remotely close to such a horrid suggestion in the bible I have read. Perhaps a reference to what scripture you are referring to would be in order?

Humphreys wrote:
I wonder why you would assume I will turn to God? I can't think of a more pessimistic thing to teach my son, that his grandparents are probably burning in hell.

That would be a pessimistic thing to teach a child, because none of us know who has gone to hell. The hour of every souls death is a mystery , and we do not know who has reached to God at the hour of death, who has received forgiveness, and who atoned in purgatory, before crossing the gate into heaven.

Is it better to teach a child, that after we spend a life of caring and loving for our families , that we all just wither and die off, never to remember any of it. All of it being meaningless in the time and space of existence ?

Humphreys wrote:
Have you yourself ever wondered whether it's all just a big lie? Or would you be unable to face such a harsh truth and prefer to live in the comfort of that lie?

I sure have wondered, and considered it, with great bitterness, at some point in my life. It was the the purity of the messages that are being given to certain souls all over this world that brought me back to prayer, and asking this -" God ,if you are real, draw me to Your reality and Your truth" The tender love that flooded my soul at this time of pleading to know the truth, pointed me back into the love and mercy of Christ.

Humphreys wrote:
I wonder if you realize how different things can be outside the US. Here in England, for example, we tend to look at very religious people with surprise and wonder "Why/how does he believe THAT?". They are in the minority. Atheists and agnostics are the majority here. Do you wonder why religion and religious belief is so localized to certain countries/areas? How does a legitimate God have so few indians following him, for instance, but so many white Americans?

All of this has been prophesied about Humphreys, and there is a great spiritual battle taking place in the spiritual realms as we speak. Who cares about minority or majority, it is truth that will win in the end. Do you think a living God has not made Himself known ? Do you actually think there are no atheists who have not been fully converted , with a very very interesting story behind the conversion ? You can close your eyes , and shut your ears to the many REALITIES God is giving us , to prove His love for us, and His existence. Did you ever think how many Christians can look at atheists , when they know what they know, and not think.."How can they NOT believe in a loving, merciful, living God?"

There are natives who follow Christ. I will say this. Humanity is weak, and will tend to follow the trend of their "associates" in order to be "accepted" even if they really don't believe in the concepts. This happens with Christianity, The religions of the natives, and yes.. with atheists as well. There are many atheists who in their hearts do think there could be a God, but do not want to let go of their "social peer group", so stifle their real inner convictions of what truth is.

It is more important for humans to be accepted by their peers, than to acknowledge the bits of truth they know in their hearts. How truly sad, because in the end , it is not their peers who will save them , or who died for their sins. It is more important for the weak to be politically correct and accepted, than morally strong and acknowledging the ways of Our Father in heaven.

I am not saying you fall into this category Humphryes, nor am I calling you weak, but please think about those words, because you know it is true how people feel the need to be 'accepted" by the majority.

Sorry no cigar for you EH, not one person said this was proof God does not exist, except you and Humphreys.

OraProNobis wrote:

Humphreys wrote:
Prayer has been scientifically tested - it failed; made no difference.

That is not what i was told. Watched a whole documentary on studies done that proved the opposite.

I believe you are misinformed.

I know of only one major study that showed an affect and it was a proven fraud.

See here:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/columbia_ ... _and_fraud

However, examples of prayer being shown ineffective are numerous.

See some below:

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEAS ... 1STEP.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/healt ... wanted=all
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... I1BCH1.DTL

In one of these studies there were actually more complications in those prayed for.

OraProNobis wrote:God works in many ways, for reasons far beyond what we can understand or know.

Right, yet people here read the Bible and pretend to know exactly what he wants and thinks?

OraProNobis wrote:He does not always require great distances to be traveled. As far as funding science for a cure for cancer, how has that been working for us so far?

We make constant progress but it is slow.

There are many promising leads but cancer is a horrendous disease and extremely tough to combat.

OraProNobis wrote:How do we know that God in His infinite mercy does not take up those souls of innocent babies to a far better place , where they can pray in spirit with the angels, for the souls of their families and loved ones left on earth?

Infinite mercy does not jive well with the Hell awaiting unbelievers as described in the Bible. Your God can be callous at best, evil at worst.

Not sure what bible you read, but I have never came across anything remotely close to such a horrid suggestion in the bible I have read. Perhaps a reference to what scripture you are referring to would be in order?

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock," (Psalm 137:9).

That would be a pessimistic thing to teach a child, because none of us know who has gone to hell.

The Bible makes it clear the path is narrow. If we believe it, the majority will not make it and hell awaits - eternal torture.

Pessimistic, yes, but that's Christianity.

Is it better to teach a child, that after we spend a life of caring and loving for our families , that we all just wither and die off, never to remember any of it. All of it being meaningless in the time and space of existence ?

Of course it is, although there is nothing meaningless about enjoying your life and passing your wisdom onto your offspring.

There is a certain beauty in our mortality.

But who knows, if we shed our superstitions, it is feasible we could overcome death even through science. I am not of the belief that atheism mandates no possibility of living on in some form, anyway.

I would rather teach my child to think for himself, and come to the truth in his own way, whatever his conclusion. Truth is important about anything, I am sure you agree.

Do you think a living God has not made Himself known ? Do you actually think there are no atheists who have not been fully converted , with a very very interesting story behind the conversion ? You can close your eyes , and shut your ears to the many REALITIES God is giving us , to prove His love for us, and His existence. Did you ever think how many Christians can look at atheists , when they know what they know, and not think.."How can they NOT believe in a loving, merciful, living God?"

Atheists have been converted, but devout Christians have become atheists too. It goes both ways.

I often wonder whether the Christians who think their God is so loving have actually read their Bible - all of it, not just the nice parts. He basically destroyed all of mankind, at one point, in the flood. Babies, animals, the lot.

Very interesting study, again where you can't see the forest through the trees. Humphreys. What is the complication rate of open heart surgury compared to 1950, 1920, or the 1800's? We should believe prayer had nothing to do with the advancement of medicine, and the fact now the techniques used are so perfected the complication rate is a consistant 50%. That prayer had nothing to do with the developement of the first heart transplant, or the aritfical heart, or the fact heart surgury in 80 year olds is common. That prayer had nothing to do with heart surgury being preformed with fiber optics from your leg into the heart? What is todays survival rate of these surguries, compaired to decades ago.

You are the critical thinker, how valid is a staged prayer study on a process that is so dialed in now, the complication rate is practically set in stone before the prayer experiment? That the people involved were all just generic praying, and not the passionate plea of loved ones, family and friends? That the sturdy gave zero statistics about those having the surgury and the expected complications, based on general health, etc. This study is about a valid as your proofs, sorry to say.

Sorry Humphreys, but these studies of a few prayers, against predictable results, is not very convincing. Add up all the prayers from real life family over decades, people really facing these things, those who dedicate their lives to this, dedicate funding the research, measure the improvment and advancement in heart surgury, and tell us nobodies prayers did a thing. Yeah right its all just science and no Faith whatsoever.

Lets make a study where we have prayers for a Lamborgini under the Christmas tree, and we don't get one, deduct prayer doesn't work.

Humphreys wrote:

I would rather teach my child to think for himself, and come to the truth in his own way, whatever his conclusion. Truth is important about anything, I am sure you agree.

I agree truth is most important, but whether we humans have the capacity to come to "truth" by our own thinking , especially when there are much more intelligent beings outside of us , that wish to hide the truth from us, is the questions I ask.

I believe that without the help of God and His angels, we humans cannot understand His ways, and His TRUTHS. This is what the Holy Spirit is there for. All of the prophecies of the bible are unfolding as God said they would, and there will most likely be a great persecution against the Christians, once again. I've always wondered how people can condemn Christians for killing so many, when in fact so many times when I read about the lives if a saint, they were tortured and killed. The amount of Christians that have been killed for NOT renouncing their faith since the time of Christ is huge. Yet we get persecuted because we fought to take back Holy land and Holy relics that were stolen from us.

As far as God killing many through floods, yes God had brought down His justice, and He continues to do it to this day. Must be pretty sad for our God who gets totally ignored, and His commandments rejected, but if He shakes the ground under the feet of His people or sends tornadoes that destroy all the material possessions they love more than Him, that is when they open their hearts to Him, and ask Him to come into their lives.

God has sent many messengers and prophets to warn people before any disaster. Pleading with them to change their ways, and to quit offending Him deeply, but He is ignored over and over again and His prophets scoffed at, and mocked. If people will not listen to His messengers that He sends in love and mercy, than they better be ready for His chastisement.

After all HE IS GOD !!!! HE gets to decide when enough is enough, not us. We wouldn't be even have life if it were not for Him.

OraProNobis wrote:As far as God killing many through floods, yes God had brought down His justice, and He continues to do it to this day. Must be pretty sad for our God who gets totally ignored, and His commandments rejected, but if He shakes the ground under the feet of His people or sends tornadoes that destroy all the material possessions they love more than Him, that is when they open their hearts to Him, and ask Him to come into their lives.

What exactly was the point in all that? Did God not, in his infinite wisdom, know how those first humans were going to turn out?

Can't you think of a scenario where a God could exist that did not need to wipe out all of his creation and start again?

This to me is not consistent with a God who even remotely cares about limiting death and suffering. Was it all just some crazy experiment, or a game for his amusement? Because I don't find death on that scale particularly pleasant.

Imagine I am a scientist. I find out how to create my own life forms.

I have a perfect understanding of how each life form will be created. I know they are going to be bad but I create them anyway, and then destroy them in painful and unpleasant ways. I then recreate them, but this time I set up a place of punishment for the ones who I know will turn out wrong.

Is justice really being served when I torture my own creations who did not turn out a certain way, who did not worship me correctly, or simply didn't believe in me? Is that justice, or is it in fact barbaric insanity on my part?

greeney2 wrote:Very interesting study, again where you can't see the forest through the trees. Humphreys. What is the complication rate of open heart surgury compared to 1950, 1920, or the 1800's? We should believe prayer had nothing to do with the advancement of medicine, and the fact now the techniques used are so perfected the complication rate is a consistant 50%. That prayer had nothing to do with the developement of the first heart transplant, or the aritfical heart, or the fact heart surgury in 80 year olds is common. That prayer had nothing to do with heart surgury being preformed with fiber optics from your leg into the heart? What is todays survival rate of these surguries, compaired to decades ago.

We are agreed prayer had nothing to do with any of those things, I have no idea where you are going with this or what your point is, though.

I don't have the statistics for the survival rates in the 1800s, do you?

greeney2 wrote:You are the critical thinker, how valid is a staged prayer study on a process that is so dialed in now, the complication rate is practically set in stone before the prayer experiment?

Again, not sure where you're going with this, but are you implying God is unable to affect that complication rate?

I'm not sure you get it. The study compares how those fare who are prayed for against those who are not. It makes no difference either way because prayer does nothing. Let that sink in for you. You can pray as much as you like but it will make absolutely no difference to the outcome. You can scream to the devil or Allah if you like too, you can send out all the positive or negative vibes or prayers or whatever the hell you like and it will do nothing.

It's a tough and scary concept to grasp, but those are the facts.

greeney2 wrote:That the people involved were all just generic praying, and not the passionate plea of loved ones, family and friends?

Atheists from atheist families who do not pray get better sometimes, so do Christians whose families beg God to heal their sick loves ones. Also, believe it or not, sometimes people are prayed for passionately and they just die. There has not been anything ever to show a difference between the two groups because prayer doesn't do anything.

Again, let that sink in.

What I find most sick in all this is that a surgeon may spend 12 hours in surgery using his scientific driven medical expertise to save a patient, be he/she atheist or Christian or whatever, and at the end of it, God gets thanked.