The Black Vault

at1with0 wrote:If the descriptions of hell are to be taken as metaphor, what does that say for the doctrine of heaven?

The descriptions are symbolic, no doubt. But, they don't fully describe the horrors of the reality of Hell. They are just meant to give you a slight glimpse of what it is like, enough to understand it is a place you do not want to go.

I would say the same could be said for the descriptions of Heaven. They are meant only to give you a glimpse of its glory and wonder. You wont fully understand how wonderful a place it is until you get there,(if you get there.)


None of this changes any of the teachings of the Bible. All it does is let us know we can't fully understand it all in this life, or in this world.

I believe that when a lot of people imagine the concept of hell, they imagine "eternal torment" as being burned alive eternally. As if the physical, or even somehow the spiritual body of a person is literally skewered and then rotated by crank--rotisserie style--over an open flame.

I don't think so.

I believe hell is a place where the populace can roam. Because of the many descriptions pointing directly to fire, I feel we must assume that is definitely a hot place. Likely there are flames burning constantly all around. But I rather think much of the torment itself will be the inescapability; the absence of God's presence, and the constant thirst (literal and figurative)... the yearning for a way out or for a mulligan / do-over.

Take Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus for example. Jesus describes the rich man who died and went to hell, as a man who was thirsty and dying for just a drop of water, yet able to speak, and even able to somehow see others who had died, who were in a much better place. Yet, the rich man was described as being in anguish in the flame, I do concede that. I just can't imagine that hell will be a constant, uninterrupted scorching of someone because if that were true, they would be constantly screaming in agony and would not even have the capability to utter a single word, let alone beg for forgiveness; let alone observe and study what others are doing.

I can't quite grasp what Jesus was fully describing, but, I still have to conclude that the people in hell will have at least a few moments now and again to collect their thoughts and see what is going on around them.


Sidenote:
Some of the worst dreams I have ever had are centered on the same motif. I've had so many of these dreams I can't even count. Whatever the scenario is, the theme is always the same. I do something really, really horrible. So bad that I don't even want to face up to it and I would rather die. When the dream comes to a close, I end up realizing there is no more running; no more chance of escape; and I have this indescribable, deep feeling of regret, wishing for a second chance to do it over again, but knowing it won't happen; concluding that suicide is the only option. Inevitably, when I wake up from these intense dreams, it takes me a significant amount of time to shake off the feeling of dread, anxiety, guilt, and grief.

One thing I am certain of is, the horror these dreams have shown me is just a microscopic glimpse at what it would feel like to be condemned to hell.

I don't believe that people (perhaps in a church somewhere) invented hell to control people. If they did, they're doing a pretty poor job of controlling people.

Heaven and hell both have intersections with this world; it has to do with how able one is to perceive the immanent presence of God which is also, oddly enough, quite transcendent. This ability is closely related to the capacity to feel God's love. God's love can be heaven and hell.

The name I have for the intersection of heaven with this world is Eden. I don't have a name for the intersection of hell and this world other than the description "hell on earth." I could very well be just a clown and a fool but I would still say that Eden and hell on earth are regularly traversed by humans such as (but certainly not limited to) when a child is born, when someone gets married, sometimes when someone takes communion, or anything profoundly "good" happens. Such events can trigger an Eden experience.

The hard part is often staying in Eden (which has different names in different belief systems). In Genesis it says a Cherub protects Eden with a sword "that turns every way." The way I usually choose to interpret that is that the seeker of Eden is holding the sword pointed at himself so that no matter which way the aspirant turns, the sword he's carrying is still pointed at himself. I wonder who crafted that sword and what its purpose is, other than to protect Eden. Could it be the Adversary's sword? A small glimpse at Eden can be a trying experience, hellish even that one realizes it's there and attainable but there is befuddlement regarding how to "get there." I'm already confusing with this language the fact that Eden is not located at a certain latitude and longitude on earth; what I'm calling Eden is a place where the soul might find itself (for want of a less loaded way to put that).

The trick (which I haven't come close to doing) is to find fruit in Eden and sustain one's self on that fruit rather than earthly fruit. The whole digestive tract changes. The intravenous line is firmly lodged in there, delivering all this earth has to offer. The trick is to pull out that earthly feeding tube and to be sustained by that which is spiritually healthy sustenance.

As I said, that's not a trick I have at all mastered. I can say that leaving the earthly pleasure intravenous line in is a sure pathway to hell on earth.

at1with0 wrote:I don't believe that people (perhaps in a church somewhere) invented hell to control people. If they did, they're doing a pretty poor job of controlling people.

Indeed my good friend!!! Spot on!

You made me laugh.

you guys seem blinded by dogma to me
just sayin'
semantics..pfft

AT1with0 wrote:
A small glimpse at Eden can be a trying experience, hellish even that one realizes it's there and attainable but there is befuddlement regarding how to "get there."

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to when you wrote the above words, but when I read them I instantly thought of "getting there" through the mercy and atonement of Jesus.

frrostedman wrote:

bionic wrote:we create our own heaven and hell with our karma and our self judgement..in th eend..we judge ourselves..but with the revelation of all we have said and done and how it has affected everyone and everything in our world..we get to see that from all perceptions..and then we..our soul.. gets to live with it

Okee dokee.. in that case I give myself a full pardon.

I forgive you Tom (Oops Frosty).

"If you forgive others their wrongs, your Father in heaven will also forgive yours. If you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive you either. (Matthew6:14-15)"

bionic wrote:you guys seem blinded by dogma to me
just sayin'
semantics..pfft

You seem blinded by your own narcissism as to the weight your self-judgement carries.

OraProNobis wrote:

AT1with0 wrote:
A small glimpse at Eden can be a trying experience, hellish even that one realizes it's there and attainable but there is befuddlement regarding how to "get there."

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to when you wrote the above words, but when I read them I instantly thought of "getting there" through the mercy and atonement of Jesus.

That could be one method of getting there, depending on your conscious contact with Christ.

at1with0 wrote:That could be one method of getting there, depending on your conscious contact with Christ.

That is the only way of getting to Heaven.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus makes it clear that there is no other way. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it.

That assumes that there is only one heaven-like realm in the multiverse.