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MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY

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Postby zoltan2 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:37 am

Rykuss wrote:As an outsider to the Catholic faith, I have to say that the stark comparison to Paganism is undeniable. Well, you can deny it I suppose and many do but it is there. My ex-wife was Catholic, so naturally I was dragged to Mass and her family fully expected me to convert. The question put forth to me was, "So when are you going to convert?" :lol: Anyway, as I sat through these Masses, I couldn't help but notice the rituals going on and something screamed out to me from my psyche. It just didn't feel right but I wasn't sure why. I hadn't really studied religions and spirituality at the time, I'd read the Bible sure but not much more than that. Since my ex-wife was also on the faculty of this particular church, which also had a school, I saw the most hypocritical and blasphemous behavior take place in the church I've ever seen.

There was a Christmas party, you see, for the faculty. We arrived and I expected there to be religious stuff but boy was I surprised! In the church office, there were iced-down trash cans full of beer and whiskey galore. I looked at her and told her I was pretty sure they were all going to hell. :lol: Seriously though, the drunkeness and lewd conduct that happened that night really opened my eyes. Seeing these same people in Mass or out on the street, even in their homes with their fake, pretentious, pious attitudes really turned my stomach. The in-laws were a riot, always booze and beer in the fridge but pretended it wasn't there or scowled at me for having one. :roll: My ex-wife was the same way.

She'd always have beer and wine on the grocery list but get pissed off if I actually drank it. I'd always stump her when I asked, "Then what the hell did you buy it for?" Same thing with the in-laws, never got an answer. :lol: The weirdest thing though and I can't seem to get my head around this, is that Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. The ritualistic manner in which these Masses are conducted is another mystery to me. Especially when the church publicly ridicules Pagan followers and their "ritualistic" practices.

The use of Mary is yet another thing that puzzles me. It's as close to a Goddess figure as Christianity will ever get, I suppose, seeing as how anything feminine is evil and should be struck down at any cost. These are just some of the things I've noticed over the years and have come to the conclusion that the current church is just Pagan-light with a male dominant twist.


Wow well said.
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Postby zoltan2 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:02 am

frrostedman wrote:
Rykuss wrote:As an outsider to the Catholic faith, I have to say that the stark comparison to Paganism is undeniable. Well, you can deny it I suppose and many do but it is there. My ex-wife was Catholic, so naturally I was dragged to Mass and her family fully expected me to convert. The question put forth to me was, "So when are you going to convert?" :lol: Anyway, as I sat through these Masses, I couldn't help but notice the rituals going on and something screamed out to me from my psyche. It just didn't feel right but I wasn't sure why. I hadn't really studied religions and spirituality at the time, I'd read the Bible sure but not much more than that. Since my ex-wife was also on the faculty of this particular church, which also had a school, I saw the most hypocritical and blasphemous behavior take place in the church I've ever seen.

There was a Christmas party, you see, for the faculty. We arrived and I expected there to be religious stuff but boy was I surprised! In the church office, there were iced-down trash cans full of beer and whiskey galore. I looked at her and told her I was pretty sure they were all going to hell. :lol: Seriously though, the drunkeness and lewd conduct that happened that night really opened my eyes. Seeing these same people in Mass or out on the street, even in their homes with their fake, pretentious, pious attitudes really turned my stomach. The in-laws were a riot, always booze and beer in the fridge but pretended it wasn't there or scowled at me for having one. :roll: My ex-wife was the same way.

She'd always have beer and wine on the grocery list but get pissed off if I actually drank it. I'd always stump her when I asked, "Then what the hell did you buy it for?" Same thing with the in-laws, never got an answer. :lol: The weirdest thing though and I can't seem to get my head around this, is that Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. The ritualistic manner in which these Masses are conducted is another mystery to me. Especially when the church publicly ridicules Pagan followers and their "ritualistic" practices.

The use of Mary is yet another thing that puzzles me. It's as close to a Goddess figure as Christianity will ever get, I suppose, seeing as how anything feminine is evil and should be struck down at any cost. These are just some of the things I've noticed over the years and have come to the conclusion that the current church is just Pagan-light with a male dominant twist.


There's an old joke.

How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip? Invite a 2nd Baptist along. LOL. I guess maybe the same could be said for the Catholics you were involved with.

Anyway. I can totally relate with what you're talking about. Take my wife for example. She is MEXICAN-Catholic. Now, if you want to see just how crazy it gets, do a Google search on Guadalupe. That's who the Mexican Catholics pray to... along with the Saints, depending on the type of thing they are praying for. "Need help with money? Pray to this Saint. Need help with your health? Pray to this Saint." And so on.

I keep telling her to forget all that stuff and pray directly to Christ, as He said to do in the bible. Her reply is usually something along the lines of, "I believe in Christ... but I also believe in Guadalupe...." And the conversation generally stalls from there. One of these days I'm going to have to force her to show me in the bible where it says to pray to and in the name of Mary/Guadalupe, or any other entity or human being besides Jesus Christ/God. The problem with that argument is, she is following the established tradition of the Mexican Catholic Church, and following what her Church elders pass on which goes back for many centuries. Catholics place a lot of footing, perhaps The Ave Maria, part of the last

What do you expect when you have the pope that makes pilgrimage trips around the world prying to all kinds of statue of Mary Black Or White.

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans

The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ. (Matthew 6:5-13).


Yet the catholic church impose people to recite the rosary repeating over and over again the Hail Mary Prayer

What do you expect when The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God", as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in 431

What do you expect when The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1834

The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

What do you expect when in the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
Meaning that Mary did not die on earth but it was lifted into heaven.


Your wife as been brainwashed into this and will not change
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:56 pm

zoltan2 wrote:Your wife as been brainwashed into this and will not change


That's why she's my ex-wife. :P

Nah, I'm kidding. It's because she was a real bitch. :lol:
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Postby frrostedman » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:00 am

I hope you read my message rykuss

I had a nice evening and felt like posting some things with sincere honesty... and thanks to zoltan my posts were all buried and subject derailed. :cry:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby Guest » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:56 am

frrostedman wrote:I hope you read my message rykuss

I had a nice evening and felt like posting some things with sincere honesty... and thanks to zoltan my posts were all buried and subject derailed. :cry:


Yeah that was a fine example of what I was talking about. It's also an example of the "traditions of man" discussion. It's very Pagan-esque, I think. I'm afraid you're going to be praying until the end of days on that one, it's pretty deep-rooted tradition. :P
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Postby frrostedman » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:34 am

Indeed, brometheus. Indeed.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby roger_pearse » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Some years ago I got tired of seeing, every Christmas, the "Jesus is really Mithras! Har har!" posts, which never seemed to contain any information about Mithras. My hobby is ancient history, and the posts rather smelled, to my eye. So I researched the cult of Mithras, and tabulated all the ancient sources, and I read the main scholarly works. I was rather depressed to find that the posts that had sparked it all did not contain ANY valid history (I leave the religious issue aside), and were utterly wrong on points of FACT (again, religious opinions are not the point here -- I'm talking about stuff you can just look up).

I see that some of the rubbish has crept in here, via the Jewish hate-site JDStone. I wonder if I might add a few comments on the statements made, as if from history?

zoltan2 wrote:1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.


This involves the first serious mistake. Persian Mithra and Roman Mithras are not the same thing. The archaeology makes it impossible for them to be same; and Mithras is mainly known from archaeology. The first archaeology of Mithras dates to ca. 100 AD; the first literary text (Statius) to ca. 80 AD. No such statement is found in ANY ancient Mithras source.

I am also familiar with the Zoroastrian texts that mention Mithra. No such statement is found in any of these.

If anyone wants to argue, I must ask that they produce the relevant primary source. There isn't one.

The statements made below say "Mithra" but mean "Mithras", the Roman cult. No Zoroastrian text records any of what follows about Mithra.

2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.c


No ancient source associates Mithras with 25 Dec., unfortunately. The idea that it might is based on a careless statement ca. 1900 by the great Mithras scholar, Franz Cumont, and repeated without careful examination since. But it's just a myth. There WAS a festival of the late Roman state sun god, Sol Invictus on that date in late antiquity, but it is not recorded before 354 AD (in the Chronography of 354).

3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.


No ancient text records this. Mithras did not die in any ancient source; nor did he have "disciples". He is sometimes depicted with stars on his cloak, and surrounded by the zodiac.

4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.


No ancient text records any death, still less a burial.

5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.


No ancient text records this.

6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length). "


No ancient text records this either.

When the Christ myth was new Mithras and Mithraism were already ancient.


There is no ancient source for Mithras before AD 80, although the cult must have existed earlier, I would suggest. The only source suggesting a pre-Christian origin is Plutarch's "Life of Pompey", written ca. 110 AD, which says that the Cilician pirates worshipped Mithras ca. 68 BC. But the archaeology shows no sign of this, and consequently modern scholars tend to suppose that Plutarch, 170 years later, was simply confused.

Worshiped for centuries as God's Messenger of Truth, Mithras was long revered by the Persians and the Indians (Zoroastrianism)


The Persian cult of Mithra (Indian Mitra) is certainly ancient. But "God's Messenger of Truth"? Mithra is always described as the "Lord of wide pastures".

before his faith found it's way to Rome where His mysteries flourished in the second century AD.


The 2nd century WAS the heyday of the Mithras cult, as the archaeology shows. But it was not a Persian cult, other than in name. There are no Mithraeums - the characteristic temples of Mithras - outside the Roman empire.

Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born one more, putting an end to darkness.


No ancient text records this.

Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense.


No ancient text records this. It is, evidently, a crude modern fiction, inspired by malice. One would have thought the phrase "too good to be true" would have occurred to the author at some point, but evidently not.

Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.


Here we see how another version of the same nonsense has been crudely tacked onto the bottom, ignoring the duplication.

How much of this is true? Very little. No text shows Mithras born in a cave -- he was born from a rock! He wasn't a man at all. He was never addressed in such terms as Jesus. He had no disciples, did not travel, was never buried or died. The remainder is of the same standard.

Many ancient cults had ritual meals. Commonplace human acts like eating in the presence of a god do not require any special theory of origins. In the case of the Mithras cult there were seven different meals, for each of the seven grades of initiation. One of these was a meal of bread and water (not bread and wine), which Justin Martyr, ca. 150 AD, tells us was being celebrated by cultists in Rome in a way that took the piss out of the Christian communion. Unfortunately he does not tell us how, or why; but Justin himself was denounced to the police and executed some time later, so it probably reflects rising animosity against Christians in Roman society at that period.

Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum)


The Taurobolium is not a rite of Mithras, but of Cybele. It was not called "baptism in the blood of the bull" in any ancient source.

– early Baptism "washed in the blood of the Lamb" – late Baptism by water [recorded by the Christian author Tertullian Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and Salvation of His adherents --an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine.


The punctuation is too poor to be certain what is asserted as evidenced by Tertullian, but none of what is said here is evidenced in his works.

Paul was quit aware of all of this


No ancient text records this, however. It is not certain, after all, that the cult even existed in his lifetime.

and it was that much easier to bring the pagan Gentile people into this new religion called Christianity.


The early Christians were not syncretic, and their history is one of persecution precisely because they did NOT hold this view.

Enough of this malicious twaddle. All this stuff is nonsense, which a child could verify if he chose. It is fabricated by dishonest and malicious people, for the purpose of deceiving those eager to believe ill of Christianity. Whatever our religious opinions -- and mine are no better than anyone else's -- I do not see how anyone benefits from getting the raw data wrong.

Be sceptical. Believe none of this stuff -- we can all see the malice all over it -- unless it is referenced to ancient sources; and CHECK those references using Google.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:16 pm

Welcome Roger to the Blackvault, your arrival is very timely given the event of the person you just quoted and elequently discredited every sentence he claims. Well done, I am not much of an expert on this subject, however the exposing the agenda behind what was written, is at a perfect time.
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Postby roger_pearse » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:20 am

greeney2 wrote:Welcome Roger to the Blackvault, your arrival is very timely given the event of the person you just quoted and elequently discredited every sentence he claims. Well done, I am not much of an expert on this subject, however the exposing the agenda behind what was written, is at a perfect time.


Thank you for your welcome!

I don't think that we should see this as "one forum poster is right, one is wrong" stuff. The original poster was just repeating, no doubt in good faith, stuff he found online. And who hasn't done that?

The way that I think we should all see it, is that all of us are at the mercy of people like the authors of the sites he used, and that it is the authors of these sites whom we should detest. It's one thing to paste a load of stuff off a site in a forum; but doing what "J.D.Stone" did (and others) -- putting a page online of this kind, knowing that, in fact, you have no idea whether it is true... and not caring -- to me, that is utterly dishonest. It is, of course, atheists who fall for it. It is atheists who are the intended victims. Everyone else can see that it sort of feels funny, even if they don't know the details.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Postby greeney2 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:48 am

Roger you hit the nail right on the head, with that statement, and something I have talked alot about here. Separating fact from fiction. Not just in this subject, but in many other areas of the message board forums. Copy and pasted things about religion from any number of subjects, to the war forum, government conspiracy, where wild theories have little or no proof, or accuaracy whatsoever. In addition to altered, edited, an totally fabricated things, especially pictures that are photoshopped. Unfortunatly, IMHO the internet is so loaded with trash, alterned, and inaccurate information its pathetic. People read it, believe it, pass it on, and it spreads worse than monday morning rumors at the coffee machine. Things spread like wildfire and in a short time, and become gospel, with defenders ready to fight to the death, they are just valid opinions. They wonder why nobody believes anything anymore, its because of all the misinformation and lies being distributed all over the internet, without any sourse varification. Anyone and copy it, tweek it just a little and make some changes, and send it on its way.
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