The Black Vault

As an outsider to the Catholic faith, I have to say that the stark comparison to Paganism is undeniable. Well, you can deny it I suppose and many do but it is there. My ex-wife was Catholic, so naturally I was dragged to Mass and her family fully expected me to convert. The question put forth to me was, "So when are you going to convert?" Anyway, as I sat through these Masses, I couldn't help but notice the rituals going on and something screamed out to me from my psyche. It just didn't feel right but I wasn't sure why. I hadn't really studied religions and spirituality at the time, I'd read the Bible sure but not much more than that. Since my ex-wife was also on the faculty of this particular church, which also had a school, I saw the most hypocritical and blasphemous behavior take place in the church I've ever seen.

There was a Christmas party, you see, for the faculty. We arrived and I expected there to be religious stuff but boy was I surprised! In the church office, there were iced-down trash cans full of beer and whiskey galore. I looked at her and told her I was pretty sure they were all going to hell. Seriously though, the drunkeness and lewd conduct that happened that night really opened my eyes. Seeing these same people in Mass or out on the street, even in their homes with their fake, pretentious, pious attitudes really turned my stomach. The in-laws were a riot, always booze and beer in the fridge but pretended it wasn't there or scowled at me for having one. My ex-wife was the same way.

She'd always have beer and wine on the grocery list but get pissed off if I actually drank it. I'd always stump her when I asked, "Then what the hell did you buy it for?" Same thing with the in-laws, never got an answer. The weirdest thing though and I can't seem to get my head around this, is that Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. The ritualistic manner in which these Masses are conducted is another mystery to me. Especially when the church publicly ridicules Pagan followers and their "ritualistic" practices.

The use of Mary is yet another thing that puzzles me. It's as close to a Goddess figure as Christianity will ever get, I suppose, seeing as how anything feminine is evil and should be struck down at any cost. These are just some of the things I've noticed over the years and have come to the conclusion that the current church is just Pagan-light with a male dominant twist.

drinking is hypocritical and blasphemous behavior? According to who and what religion?

Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. I think you are confusing born again Christians with Catholics concerning these kind of things and critism of new age things likes crystals, etc.

greeney2 wrote:drinking is hypocritical and blasphemous behavior? According to who and what religion?

Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. I think you are confusing born again Christians with Catholics concerning these kind of things and critism of new age things likes crystals, etc.

In the church, yeah...it is. How about not snipping out the part you want to make a whimsical argument about and including everything I said. It isn't just Catholics, it's Christianity as a whole that ridicules Paganism. Each denomination has it's own views on the subject but they all do it. What is interesting to me is that all of the Christians I know, who converted to Paganism, were indeed Catholic.

greeney2 wrote:drinking is hypocritical and blasphemous behavior? According to who and what religion?

Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. I think you are confusing born again Christians with Catholics concerning these kind of things and critism of new age things likes crystals, etc.

What? Are you calling me a "crystal using weirdo"?

To be sure, there are some churches out there that are adopting some new age practices, but they are in no way true representatives of born again Christians.

You misunderstood what I said Qmark. I didn't say it was the born again Christians using things like incence, crystals, and new age things, I said it was the Born again Christians who speak out against them. Rykuss I think was confused, that the Catholics point fingers at those who use those kind of things, and I do not believe they do that. They use things like like incence, candles, etc, but not for the same reasons New Agers do, who are critisized heavily from much of the Christian religions. For many religions any Icon is idolatory worshiping, things like statues, or pictures.

Like anything else, there are many misconceptions when we look at other religions, not knowing what the theology may be.

As far as the Catholics drinking, I grew up as a kid and the Parish had a basement bowling alley under the rectory building that had a 4 lane bowling alley, and a private small bar room. I would see the priests, sleeves rolled up, having a glass of beer at the bar. Why not? Not every religion considers consuming an alcholic beverage a sin. Makes you wonder how so many Christian religions got a different message from the Bible. Dancing, Drinking, Icons, stones, candles, they all are viewed differently, if you can firgure out how, let me know.

Reminds me when my wife as a teachers aid in the Christian school the kids went to. We happened to belong to my company rockhounding, rock, gem, and mineral club, and are still members 30 years later. One day the Principle, a Baptist Christian saw my wife wearing a necklace with a polish rocks and quartz crystals, something we made in our shop classes. She ran up to her, grabbed it practically yanking if off, and demanded to know why she was wearing that, like it was something sinister and new age. My wife about fainted with such aggression from her that was totally out of control. I don't know if she thought she was some crystal worshiping witch, but she defended herself that all it was were tumbled rocks, agates, touquoise and that we belong to a club that cuts rocks, polishes them, and makes jewelery. That we work in gold and silver, and have an annual show.

Its called being a judgmental jerk, for which we went and had a meeting with the Pastor about, it was so off the wall.

LOL LOL Greeny2...you have me chuckling to myself with your story. I used to like doing lapidary work. It is sometimes tedious and slow..but the rewards are great if you develop certain skills/disciplines to compliment these.

And women do indeed love stones of various colours.

I was never impressed with most diamonds. Not enough colour for me. I love a well done agate in the proper setting. The blue of Topaz is also pleasing to my eye... and so too with quartz.

Now I have seen a few diamonds with colour in them and they are fine ...but most clear diamonds never appealed to me. Not enough colour.

I remember seeing some fellows finish a opal...and it was absolutely beautiful...with brilliant fire ...radiant!!...through and through!! Not like most of what you see in jewelry stores today...foggy and bland looking.

The first time I ever saw a sapphire or ruby in raw uncut form..I was a bit surprised..it looked like something you would pick up at the edge of a parking lot.
But the finished product is something quite different.
Particularly if you properly center the star.

All that new age stuff ...never interested me....but stones are interesting to me.

A bit off topic but your tale reminded me of things I had done or seen in the past.

Thanks for reminding me down memory lane.

Orangetom



Continuing on...to my limited knowledge the Bible does not say to not drink. It says not to be drunken. They are related but not the same thing.

There are indeed places in this world still...where you are better off consuming the alcoholic drink than the water. And so too it was in ancient times.

However...I expect that back in those days if you could get on your ass or mule...and hang on ..it could get you home ..unlike todays automobile or motorcycle. If you fell off your animal and drunken in the winter time you could be finished.

Though I have alcohol here at home I seldom drink. I do not like to be around people, male or female, who cannot handle their drink. Hence hanging around bars and becoming what I call a "Bar Fly " never appealed to me.

Working as a bus boy when a teen in a dinner night club cured me of this kind of thing when I got to see people I knew and respected being drunken. It was a wake up call to me. I got to see the other side of the coin..raw ..unfiltered. Not for me thanks.

Once again..thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

qmark wrote:

greeney2 wrote:drinking is hypocritical and blasphemous behavior? According to who and what religion?

Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. I think you are confusing born again Christians with Catholics concerning these kind of things and critism of new age things likes crystals, etc.

What? Are you calling me a "crystal using weirdo"?

To be sure, there are some churches out there that are adopting some new age practices, but they are in no way true representatives of born again Christians.

I agree qmark. That comment floored me. Born again Christians would be the last people on the planet, to incorporate anything remotely Pagan in church worship services. We take Communion and there is a tinge of controversy about that, but, that's what all Christians do so it certainly isn't something to be identified solely with born again Christians.

Rykuss wrote:As an outsider to the Catholic faith, I have to say that the stark comparison to Paganism is undeniable. Well, you can deny it I suppose and many do but it is there. My ex-wife was Catholic, so naturally I was dragged to Mass and her family fully expected me to convert. The question put forth to me was, "So when are you going to convert?" Anyway, as I sat through these Masses, I couldn't help but notice the rituals going on and something screamed out to me from my psyche. It just didn't feel right but I wasn't sure why. I hadn't really studied religions and spirituality at the time, I'd read the Bible sure but not much more than that. Since my ex-wife was also on the faculty of this particular church, which also had a school, I saw the most hypocritical and blasphemous behavior take place in the church I've ever seen.

There was a Christmas party, you see, for the faculty. We arrived and I expected there to be religious stuff but boy was I surprised! In the church office, there were iced-down trash cans full of beer and whiskey galore. I looked at her and told her I was pretty sure they were all going to hell. Seriously though, the drunkeness and lewd conduct that happened that night really opened my eyes. Seeing these same people in Mass or out on the street, even in their homes with their fake, pretentious, pious attitudes really turned my stomach. The in-laws were a riot, always booze and beer in the fridge but pretended it wasn't there or scowled at me for having one. My ex-wife was the same way.

She'd always have beer and wine on the grocery list but get pissed off if I actually drank it. I'd always stump her when I asked, "Then what the hell did you buy it for?" Same thing with the in-laws, never got an answer. The weirdest thing though and I can't seem to get my head around this, is that Catholics point the finger at all these incense burning, crystal using "Weirdos" yet go to mass where incense is being burned without skipping a beat. The ritualistic manner in which these Masses are conducted is another mystery to me. Especially when the church publicly ridicules Pagan followers and their "ritualistic" practices.

The use of Mary is yet another thing that puzzles me. It's as close to a Goddess figure as Christianity will ever get, I suppose, seeing as how anything feminine is evil and should be struck down at any cost. These are just some of the things I've noticed over the years and have come to the conclusion that the current church is just Pagan-light with a male dominant twist.

There's an old joke.

How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip? Invite a 2nd Baptist along. LOL. I guess maybe the same could be said for the Catholics you were involved with.

Anyway. I can totally relate with what you're talking about. Take my wife for example. She is MEXICAN-Catholic. Now, if you want to see just how crazy it gets, do a Google search on Guadalupe. That's who the Mexican Catholics pray to... along with the Saints, depending on the type of thing they are praying for. "Need help with money? Pray to this Saint. Need help with your health? Pray to this Saint." And so on.

I keep telling her to forget all that stuff and pray directly to Christ, as He said to do in the bible. Her reply is usually something along the lines of, "I believe in Christ... but I also believe in Guadalupe...." And the conversation generally stalls from there. One of these days I'm going to have to force her to show me in the bible where it says to pray to and in the name of Mary/Guadalupe, or any other entity or human being besides Jesus Christ/God. The problem with that argument is, she is following the established tradition of the Mexican Catholic Church, and following what her Church elders pass on which goes back for many centuries. Catholics place a lot of footing, perhaps equal footing, on Church tradition as they do the words in the bible. I can't do much to that but just shrug my shoulders and pray for her eyes to open.

Frrosty, go up a few boxes and read my reply to qmark on his statement, he misread my comment as you will see in my explanation.

OrangeTom, we should start a thread of lapidary, and related parts of the hobby. Amazing what we have in common on many things.

greeney2 wrote:Frrosty, go up a few boxes and read my reply to qmark on his statement, he misread my comment as you will see in my explanation.

Ah! I see. Got it.