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Vatican told to pay taxes as Italy tackles budget crisis

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Postby zoltan2 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:56 am

Vatican told to pay taxes as Italy tackles budget crisis

End of controversial property tax breaks leaves the Pope facing €600m-a-year bill

more than $1.2 billion in taxes alone in Italy wow and Jesus only had sandles and a robe



Michael Day Author Biography

Milan

Friday 17 February 2012


After several years of scandal in which the Catholic Church has faced allegations of financial impropriety, paedophile priests and rumours of plots to kill the Pope, the Vatican is now facing a new €600m-a-year tax bill as Rome seeks to head off European Commission censure over controversial property tax breaks enjoyed by the Church.

As the EC heads closer to officially condemning the fiscal perks enjoyed by the Catholic Church and introduced by the Berlusconi administration, Prime Minister Mario Monti has written to the Competition Commissioner, Joaquin Almunia, saying that the Vatican will resume property tax, or Ici, payments.

Mr Almunia said in 2010 that the exemption amounted to state aid that might breach EU competition law. A parliamentary proposal by the Italian Radicals party last August to repeal the exemption, with a successful petition on Facebook, upped the pressure. A spokesman for Mr Almunia appeared to give the thumbs-up yesterday: "It is a proposal that constitutes a significant progress on the issue and I hope will be implemented," he said.

"This is a victory for public pressure," said Mario Staderini, the leader of the Italian Radicals party. "We've managed to break down – a little bit – the wall protecting the Church."

The Vatican avoids Ici tax on about 100,000 properties, classed as non-commercial, including 8,779 schools, 26,300 ecclesiastical structures and 4,714 hospitals and clinics.

Estimates of its annual saving from avoiding the levy range widely from €600m to €2.2bn. The Church, however, says the tax exemption is worth only €100m a year. Neither is it clear from Mr Monti's comments how much Ici tax the Church will now have to pay.

Since 2005 church-run organisations have not been considered ordinary commercial structures and have been exempt. According to Corriere della Sera newspaper, tax authorities will judge how much of a property is used purely for religious purposes and tax it accordingly. Thus a church will remain exempt. But a hostel with a chapel would have to make contributions. In addition, Mr Monti said in his letter that by changing the law, and removing some of the church's exemption from Ici, he expected the EC to relent on demands that tax payments be backdated.

"We think the Church should have to pay the arrears," said Mr Staderini. "It should make the payment back to 2005. Given how much the Vatican stood to pay with arrears, I think they will not be that unhappy with the result."

Monsignor Domenico Pompili, a spokesman for the Italian Bishops Conference said the Church hoped the "social value" of their establishments would be taken into account.

Meanwhile, as the Vatican financial authorities do their sums and continue to lobby, the Holy See has announced an official investigation into a series of embarrassing leaks. After the child abuse and financial scandals of recent years, the prospects for another annus horribilis were underlined last week when a document emerged suggesting there was a plot to kill Pope Benedict XVI this year.

"It's now complete war inside the Vatican," said Robert Mickens, The Tablet's Rome correspondent, who has20 years' experience of reporting on the Vatican. "Things are falling apart."

The rancour has been blamed on manoeuvring surrounding the succession of Pope Benedict and the exceptional unpopularity of the current leadership.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:13 pm

This is about as naturally stupid and unintelligent as it gets. It does however make justifiable reason to some men...and puts ointment on their feelings while they do not tell the whole history.

One...the Vatican is a separate nation within Italy..a Sovereign nation.

Two...For all that matter..so too is the Villa de Malta...or Maltese Order of Masonic Knighthood is also a separate sovereign nation within Italy. I am wondering when I read this article about them in addition to the Vatican.

So a sovereign nation can be taxed by another sovereign nation?? Is that how it works??

Three...historically ..and particularly the Italian government ...governments tend to spend like drunken whores. Governments historically tend to spend so much and so radically ..they give real whores a bad name. At least real whores produce a product or labor useful and appreciated by the marketplace. Not so with a drunken government.

I am sure the Italian government could take all the RCC properties en Toto..and sell them and have it spent within a year..no problem..and be looking for more.

I do not hear any evidence in those articles of government cut backs on expenditures. And this is not the first time the Italian government has found itself in this position.

Four....once you tax the RCC....you are admitting the RCC to have a say in the Italian government. And you do not want the RCC running the Italian Government. The Italians, on their own, are doing a horrible job without the help of the RCC.....as are most of the nations running the phony fiat unbacked paper irredeemable money systems.

Do not misunderstand me here. I am not standing up for the RCC. No Sir...I am not. The RCC does not need me standing up for them.

What I see in this article is the Italian Radicals...ie...code speak for leftists, communists, socialists...Occupy Wall Street types....seeking by false logic and reason...ie...emotions...and drama..to put the RCC in a box.

What you have here is two bad guy groups working another bad guy group..the Italian government to get their way. They are all of Ishmael...Ishmaelites.

One Ishmaelite group fighting and struggling against another Ishmaelite group..while deceiving the public into thinking it is the Italian Radicals..(good guys) verses the RCC (Bad Guys.)

Nope....I see two bad guy groups...Ishmaelites both working an undefined and misleading territory on an unsuspecting and unknowledgeable public.

Remember ..it is logical reasonable men...men of enlightenment who put the Italian government into such a deficit position...just as these same people of enlightenment have done to us here in the States.

Is anyone here in Italy speaking of balancing the budget...or are they just speaking of getting new revenue??

Think it through ..don't emote..think.

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Postby greeney2 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:57 pm

For Zoltan, if it sticks it to the Catholic Church in any way, thats his agenda he relishes in, problem is thats his attitude twards anyone who is Catholic too. We are supose to believe he was abused by a priest just on his word, or was it Tichens, oh Boo Hoo! He sits at his computer, posting anti-Catholic crap, and anti-american crap, but forgets Canada is protected by the very country he bashes at every oppotunity, and that Canada is very much a part of the American Military budget, that allows him to be safe. Canada is part of NORAD, so we sould be taxing Canada, by the same logic. Than he posts a story about our children eating rats, while our military budget protects Canada and him, who has horrible child poverty even without a massive military budget. Canada is supose to be known for socialized medicine, which is supose to be better, but on the other hand they have this child poverty. Why would he be concerned with Italy taxing the Catholics at all??? Pretty stupid if you ask me, and he has more important priorieties as a Canadian.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Child_Poverty_in_Canada.aspx
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Postby zoltan2 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:42 pm

greeney2 wrote:For Zoltan, if it sticks it to the Catholic Church in any way, thats his agenda he relishes in, problem is thats his attitude twards anyone who is Catholic too. We are supose to believe he was abused by a priest just on his word, or was it Tichens, oh Boo Hoo! He sits at his computer, posting anti-Catholic crap, and anti-american crap, but forgets Canada is protected by the very country he bashes at every oppotunity, and that Canada is very much a part of the American Military budget, that allows him to be safe. Canada is part of NORAD, so we sould be taxing Canada, by the same logic. Than he posts a story about our children eating rats, while our military budget protects Canada and him, who has horrible child poverty even without a massive military budget. Canada is supose to be known for socialized medicine, which is supose to be better, but on the other hand they have this child poverty. Why would he be concerned with Italy taxing the Catholics at all??? Pretty stupid if you ask me, and he has more important priorieties as a Canadian.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Child_Poverty_in_Canada.aspx


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: You are so funny :dance:
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:04 pm

Whats funny is you laughing at the fact the only 2 responders to this post called you stupid!
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Postby zoltan2 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:45 pm

greeney2 wrote:Whats funny is you laughing at the fact the only 2 responders to this post called you stupid!


You are so evil :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Orangetom is not calling me stupid like you do.
I guess you have a problem in reading and comprehending what is written.

Who Orangetom is calling stupid is the politicians in Rome seeking to head off European Commission censure over controversial property tax breaks enjoyed by the Church.

[b]As the EC heads closer to officially condemning the fiscal perks enjoyed by the Catholic Church and introduced by the Berlusconi administration, Prime Minister Mario Monti has written to the Competition Commissioner, Joaquin Almunia, saying that the Vatican will resume property tax, or Ici, payments.[/b]

Mr Almunia said in 2010 that the exemption amounted to state aid that might breach EU competition law. A parliamentary proposal by the Italian Radicals party last August to repeal the exemption, with a successful petition on Facebook, upped the pressure. A spokesman for Mr Almunia appeared to give the thumbs-up yesterday: "It is a proposal that constitutes a significant progress on the issue and I hope will be implemented," he said. "This is a victory for public pressure," said Mario Staderini, the leader of the Italian Radicals party. "We've managed to break down – a little bit – the wall protecting the Church."
Orangetom is referring to the people above.

In your malice you just like to denigrate me :mrgreen: :naughty: :naughty: :naughty: :snooty:
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Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:49 pm

Quite correct here Zoltan2,

You are so evil
Orangetom is not calling me stupid like you do.
I guess you have a problem in reading and comprehending what is written.

Who Orangetom is calling stupid is the politicians in Rome seeking to head off European Commission censure over controversial property tax breaks enjoyed by the Church.




I believe in the doctrine and practice of Separation of Church and State.

I also happen to know that the reason for this separation is to prevent the Mischief of which Rome got involved into by controlling and manipulating the kings and nations of Europe.
The Founding Fathers here in America knew this history ...the history of "Divine Right of Kings" and the role it played in keeping many nations backwards and under bondage and tyranny to not only very poor kings as leaders, but also to priests and popes..at the same time.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to prevent government from going back to absolute power in the hands of men...back towards religious power...of which abuses they were well familiar. To prevent mischief of natural men in government. Separation of church and state was to limit the power of government. Not to limit the power of the people.

Today under gnostic wise men and intellect we see government going back to absolute power ..but by the new religion called secular reasoning and beliefs.
They are now by intellect moving into the religious arena and attempting to separate the people from their religion.

This was never intended to put limits on the people...to live their religions but to limit the government.

I also believe that Churches should be tax immune...not tax exempt. Tax exempt is not separation from government.

For even when secular government becomes so corrupt and unaccountable to the people or the laws of the land..they will spend everything the people have or ever will have while granting themselves more and more power. They will also take everything from the Churches as well and spend this too. And it has been done in history. It is not a new thing.

I am not standing up here for the RCC. I just recognize what the history states.

And to re state what I previously said...you do not want the RCC to have a hand in government affairs. Simply by their historical track record.

The RCC is not alone in this...there are other religions you do not want directly to have a role in government. For this is not separation.

This is not strictly a pick on the RCC type thing.

I had a very olde book some time back..written about 1890. It was called

"Separation of Church and State in Virginia."

What was of great interest in this book is the record of many of the colonies in early America who wanted to have an official state or colony religion recognized. Fortunately many people and colonies realized this was not the way to go..though there was very heavy and passionate debate over this very thing.
When the colonies were finally formed into states...the Founders too recognized this as not a good idea.

Thanks,
Orangetom
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Postby zoltan2 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:11 am

orangetom1999 wrote:Quite correct here Zoltan2,

You are so evil
Orangetom is not calling me stupid like you do.
I guess you have a problem in reading and comprehending what is written.

Who Orangetom is calling stupid is the politicians in Rome seeking to head off European Commission censure over controversial property tax breaks enjoyed by the Church.




I believe in the doctrine and practice of Separation of Church and State.

I also happen to know that the reason for this separation is to prevent the Mischief of which Rome got involved into by controlling and manipulating the kings and nations of Europe.
The Founding Fathers here in America knew this history ...

The purpose of separation of church and state is to prevent government from going back to absolute power in the hands of men...back towards religious power...of which abuses they were well familiar. To prevent mischief of natural men in government. Separation of church and state was to limit the power of government. Not to limit the power of the people.

Today under gnostic wise men and intellect we see government going back to absolute power ..but by the new religion called secular reasoning and beliefs.
They are now by intellect moving into the religious arena and attempting to separate the people from their religion.

This was never intended to put limits on the people...to live their religions but to limit the government.

I also believe that Churches should be tax immune...not tax exempt. Tax exempt is not separation from government.

For even when secular government becomes so corrupt and unaccountable to the people or the laws of the land..they will spend everything the people have or ever will have while granting themselves more and more power. They will also take everything from the Churches as well and spend this too. And it has been done in history. It is not a new thing.

I am not standing up here for the RCC. I just recognize what the history states.

And to re state what I previously said...you do not want the RCC to have a hand in government affairs. Simply by their historical track record.

The RCC is not alone in this...there are other religions you do not want directly to have a role in government. For this is not separation.

This is not strictly a pick on the RCC type thing.

I had a very olde book some time back..written about 1890. It was called

"Separation of Church and State in Virginia."

What was of great interest in this book is the record of many of the colonies in early America who wanted to have an official state or colony religion recognized. Fortunately many people and colonies realized this was not the way to go..though there was very heavy and passionate debate over this very thing.
When the colonies were finally formed into states...the Founders too recognized this as not a good idea.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Thank you to make this clear

You are absolutely right with your words ......... the history of "Divine Right of Kings" and the role it played in keeping many nations backwards and under bondage and tyranny to not only very poor kings as leaders, but also to priests and popes..at the same time.
I too am for the separation of Church and state.
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