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False claims of clergy abuse clarified

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Postby zoltan2 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:59 am

frrostedman wrote:We are all fallen creatures. Priests of any denomination are not excluded from this fact.

Can anyone think of another scenario where a grown man is surrounded by young boys and in a position of complete power and control over them?

If we can bring these scenarios to light, and draw a comparison, I'm pretty sure what we'll find is that Priests are much like everyone else.

Adult boy scout leaders comes to mind - although they still aren't in a position of such power and control as a priest is.

I'm saying it's not Catholicism that's the problem. It's the scenario where young boys are subjected to the power and leadership of any man, who can do whatever he wants unwatched and unchecked. I think we could put any type of man in the position of the priest and you will find that the same ratio of "other" people will do the same thing these priests are doing.

However........ because of the very nature of the priest's position, he is supposed to be the LAST person on Earth to partake in such activities. But "supposed to be" and reality are two different things most of the time. I do not believe that men groom themselves to be priests in a planned effort to take advantage of young boys. What I do believe is many of these priests didn't even know they had an attraction to young boys until they found themselves in a position to take advantage of it. Any priest worth his salt, at the very moment of discovering this weakness, should voluntarily have himself defrocked.


On the contrary the Catholic Church is and was the problem. Because they knew that this was going on a lot and never did anything to correct this. They are not spending and dishing out billions of dollars for a few cases. This was rampant and still is while absolving guilt with confession and absolution
In 1079 The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).

This should of never been instituted in the first place
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Postby hxxx » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:33 am

False claims are not nearly as problematic as legitimate claims.
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Postby frrostedman » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:55 pm

zoltan2 wrote:
frrostedman wrote:We are all fallen creatures. Priests of any denomination are not excluded from this fact.

Can anyone think of another scenario where a grown man is surrounded by young boys and in a position of complete power and control over them?

If we can bring these scenarios to light, and draw a comparison, I'm pretty sure what we'll find is that Priests are much like everyone else.

Adult boy scout leaders comes to mind - although they still aren't in a position of such power and control as a priest is.

I'm saying it's not Catholicism that's the problem. It's the scenario where young boys are subjected to the power and leadership of any man, who can do whatever he wants unwatched and unchecked. I think we could put any type of man in the position of the priest and you will find that the same ratio of "other" people will do the same thing these priests are doing.

However........ because of the very nature of the priest's position, he is supposed to be the LAST person on Earth to partake in such activities. But "supposed to be" and reality are two different things most of the time. I do not believe that men groom themselves to be priests in a planned effort to take advantage of young boys. What I do believe is many of these priests didn't even know they had an attraction to young boys until they found themselves in a position to take advantage of it. Any priest worth his salt, at the very moment of discovering this weakness, should voluntarily have himself defrocked.

People in the Church who knew of the issue and did nothing? Part of the problem. Catholicism? Not part of the problem. Let's not let this be an attack on the Church, and by Church I mean the body of Christ. Let it be an attack on the individuals responsible. Anyone who does such a thing is not following the teachings of the Scriptures, which makes them imposters and hypocrites.. not bona fide Church members.

On the contrary the Catholic Church is and was the problem. Because they knew that this was going on a lot and never did anything to correct this. They are not spending and dishing out billions of dollars for a few cases. This was rampant and still is while absolving guilt with confession and absolution
In 1079 The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).

This should of never been instituted in the first place
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby at1with0 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:20 pm

I wonder if they were allowed to be married if that would have affected the outcome with regard to their pedophilia.

I question that.

We may all be fallen creatures but some are more fallen than others :|
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Postby zoltan2 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:51 am

at1with0 wrote:I wonder if they were allowed to be married if that would have affected the outcome with regard to their pedophilia.

I question that.

We may all be fallen creatures but some are more fallen than others :|


If there was not this secret confession vow while they could hide behind these clergy men doing this would be denounce.
I and billions of people are not fallen creatures. We are human beings that can tell right from wrong even if we are not perfect. Every body does not go on rapping killing molesting children and robbing their fellow men.
In the case of the Vatican it's their system that is wrong and much of their doctrines and beliefs IMO.

Priest must say mass once a day and supposedly change the wine and bread host into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Even if and I say if that was true do you really think that Jesus or God would let the transubstantiation business happen with the unclean hands and mind of a priest who was molesting or rapping a little boy the night before.

The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year in 1215 around 800 years ago it did not even exist before for 1200 years in the Catholic Faith. How can a man the pope make this valid and right and gospel truth and this from a man pope who did the following evil deeds.


That Pope Innocent III did promote the Inquisition throughout Europe causing the murder of over one million innocent people through terrible torture and public human sacrifice.

On obstructing of basic rights and dignities of being a human being to think.

Pope Innocent III did issue a Papal Bull declaring "anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with church dogma must be burned without pity". That such action so fundamentally goes against all historical principles of the basic rights and dignities of being a human being that it represents one of the lowest marks of history concerning humanity.

Pope Innocent III did publish a Papal Bull granting church ownership of all wealth and property belonging to individuals convicted of heresy. This Papal Bull represents the birth of the all-powerful Arch-Bishops (Cardinals) of the Roman Catholic Church, who robbed Kings, Queens and Princes to gain wealth, versus Royal families that fought back, therefore the death of many tens of thousands of people over the next few centuries.

Etc etc etc........

In the meantime for 800 years people have been brainwashed that priests can do their magic trick of changing the bread and wine into the body and blood or Christ. What blasphemy and what lie. Remember the time they were burning people because people did not believed that the earth was flat and was at the center of the universe thoughts contrary to the Catholic Church
Four centuries on February 16, 1600, the Roman Catholic Church executed Giordano Bruno, Italian philosopher and scientist, for the crime of heresy. He was taken from his cell in the early hours of the morning to the Piazza dei Fiori in Rome and burnt alive at the stake.
The Holy Inquisition had forced an aged Galileo to recant his ideas under threat of torture in 1633. But no such admission has been made in the case of Bruno. His writings are still on the Vatican's list of forbidden texts.

Bruno has long been revered as a martyr to scientific truth. Bruno, challenged the church and laid the basis for modern science.
“At that time natural science also developed in the midst of the general revolution and was itself thoroughly revolutionary; it had indeed to win in struggle its right of existence. Side by side with the great Italians from whom modern philosophy dates, it provided its martyrs for the stake and the dungeons of the Inquisition.

And it is characteristic that Protestants outdid Catholics in persecuting the free investigation of nature. Calvin had Servetus burnt at the stake when the latter was on the point of discovering the circulation of the blood, and indeed he kept him roasting alive during two hours; for the Inquisition at least it sufficed to have Giordano Bruno simply burnt alive."

That is Christian religion for you
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:01 am

Well, I don't believe everything I read.
Like I said, some of us are more fallen than others. A corollary to that is that some of us are less fallen than others. :D
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Postby zoltan2 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:32 am

at1with0 wrote:Well, I don't believe everything I read.
Like I said, some of us are more fallen than others. A corollary to that is that some of us are less fallen than others. :D



These are historical facts now if you want to live in ignorance that your choice
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Postby at1with0 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:36 am

zoltan2 wrote:
at1with0 wrote:Well, I don't believe everything I read.
Like I said, some of us are more fallen than others. A corollary to that is that some of us are less fallen than others. :D



These are historical facts now if you want to live in ignorance that your choice


Historical facts. What an oxymoron.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:00 pm

Fox's Book of Matytrs.

John Fox

1926

A copy of it right here next to my computer.

In this book is detailed many of the excesses concerning the RCC through the ages including the Inquisition...in the name of the church temporal power here on earth.

Also detailed here is the RCC relationship with may kings/governments to aide in carrying out these abominations.

Now to be fair to the RCC...they were not the only ones carrying out executions in the name of the church. The Anglicans did it..so too the Lutherans and Calvinists. Though the scale was not on par with the RCC they did in fact burn people at the stake ..hang etc.

It was beginning with this book and onto others which began to clue me into the understanding that secular politics today is also a religion in competition with other religions for power and dominance over people.
The common denominator is that all of these ..including the religion of government ..use fear, guilt, and coercion to intimidate their people unto what they need of them.

The religion of secular politics today seems want to crawl into bed with Islam to achieve it's goals of control over it's people.
Thus telling me that the goals of Islamic dominance and secular politics are closely parallel. Much closer than Secular politics and the RCC.

The irony to me is that in Islam the religion is permitted to be carried forth by the sword...while claiming to be a religion of peace.
Secular religions and politic also claim to be looking for world peace...do they not?? Think this through carefully in lieu of what I often state about a product not being as advertised.

Now here is the other irony...IN the RCC the religion can be promoted and managed by burning at the stake. This is not much different from the religions being carried forth by the sword. Same with these doings by the Protestants.

This is why it is important to understand what is in the Word...not just by way of a priest or minister..but you do the study yourself...don't let someone else do it for you. Like many of us let the Media and public education do our thinking for us.

Just some thoughts on this topic line.

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Postby event_horizon » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:38 pm

Giordano Bruno was burned alive at the stake just for suggesting that the stars were suns like our own, where there were other planets and people like us. And Galileo was accused of being a heretic just for suggesting that Earth wasn't at the center of the universe. These people were punished and/or put to death in the name of "God".

It was cool for them to do that to the "heretics" back in the day, but it ain't cool now...because "God" now approves of the way the universe works. :lol:

This should scream to anyone with half a' brain that humans invented religion, not "God". But...people would rather rationalize until their heads fall off in order to keep their "Heavenly" fantasy rolling. :crazy:
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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