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Obama has no respect for our servicemen!

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Postby Aquatank » Sun May 31, 2009 3:05 pm

Blackvault,
I consider this salute issue contrived. Yes the president is Commander In Chief of the Armed Forces, but thats because a US President is like the chairman of a board of directors, the top administrator and the company has security guards. The reason we don't have standing military in the presidency and have civilians instead is to prevent dictatorships, its also the reason making the President CINC so that there are no military coups from a Field Marshall or 6 Star General and the military stays in federal control. While I do consider the salute respectful in its own way, it should not be protocol for the President to salute the military. The military and the President serve at the will of the people of the USA. The civilians should not salute the President or the military, and since the President represents the people as do all members of the congress should not salute the military. Remember also the salute is derived from knighthood, a civilian never need reveal his/her face because it always exposed, a knight must his visor to reveal his face.

To put it simply: does the mall owner salute his mall security guards?
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Postby Aquatank » Sun May 31, 2009 4:59 pm

We have former military officers who become President not standing ones, that's a big difference. As for the Mall its an overt simplification meant as an example since their is a body of thought that considers the USA a corporate entity, this hypothesis can be tracede to things like the Mayflower Compacts and such which are corporate charters granted by the King of England. But the example is meant in this way, we are democracy and a republic, we must never be seen as subserviant to the military. If or when we do we stop being a democracy.

An example is how colleges used to be run hundred of years ago and how they are run now. Students used to pay professors to teach them, and the teachers and faculty served at the will of the student, Today students still pay to be taught but the teachers and faculty are the ones in power, often overruling student councils.

We have civilian Presidents so the military doesn't overule the federal government and will of the people. A bad precedent can be seen historically in numerous countries like Britain, France, Russia where the supreme ruler disolves parliament because parliament does not agree with the ruler. Such rulers get this power through military might. We keep that seperate in the USA so that we can remain free.

Everytime we blur the distinction between the presidency and the military too much, we come that much closer to losing our freedom and liberty. Note the usurption of power by the presidency in regards to making war and the war powers act. Congreess is supposed to be the one declaring war as the legal course, but it keep losing that power & control to presidents who bend and break the laws of our Constitution. In essence by saluting the military first before the military salutes, it is metaphorically saying the populace of the USA is subserviant to the military. If the president returns a salute to the military its representaive of respect of the people. When a president does not salute, it should have no meaning to it, but if the military does not salute the president thats a breech of protocol and lack of respect. This wall is as important as the walls between church and state and largely for the same reasons.

If you don't agree, I understand. But I still find it a minor issue, Obama has made far worse mistakes IMO than this trifle. I'm so happy I didn't vote for him or McCain.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 31, 2009 5:01 pm

Aquatank, nothing was contrived, It was only my own observation and my own opinion about his way of Saluting, sending a message. John is correct, comparison to a shopping mall with security guards is rediculas. Since George Washington, our branches of the military has been been on active status 24/7 for over 230 years. The Command sturcture from the top down has always been the President, and the Chain of command downward has never been inactive. Military order, and command, has never taken a minute off since we became a country, and never will. The military tradition and protocol, and respect for the chain of command has always been, thruout the history of the USA. The President wears 2 hats, and I;m not sure either one is consided a civilian, when you have been elected and have sworn to an Oath by the highest level of the Judiciary System. As President he is chief Executive or out country and heads one of the 3 branches of Governement. The fact we have a Legislative Branch of Governement is why we do not have Dictatorships, not a military reason. The Presidents 2nd hat, is Commander in Chief. Becasue he does not wear a uniform, does not make in a civilian by any means.

No matter what the rules about Saluting and returning one, If you return a Salute, it should be to whoever has Saluted you, not a crowd or TV camera. Not returning a Salute would be more proper than returning a Salute for a show or to a nearby crowd.
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Postby Aquatank » Sun May 31, 2009 5:39 pm

But out of 233 years of existence only in the last 29 years have presidents saluted the military, and most of them were ex-military.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 31, 2009 7:15 pm

Were you ever in the military Aquatank?
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Postby Aquatank » Sun May 31, 2009 9:12 pm

Nope. And though many of friends and family are or were, I'm glad I wasn't I've got enough on conscience without that too. But I do know this: superior officers get saluted first.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun May 31, 2009 9:35 pm

I just wanted to know, if you had not ever been in the service, its an unimportant issue to you, and why you probably don't get the meaning to those who have been.

As far as the Conscience about serving in the military, or not serving in the military, it has its price either way, and another subject in itself. My Conscience is totally clear, I served my country with Honor.
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Postby Aquatank » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:12 am

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Postby Lashmar » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:14 am

You’re all going on about the lack of salute from Obama. But did you see him when he walked into Downing Street. He shook the policeman’s hand then Brown walked straight past him.
Read between the lies
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Postby Aquatank » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:25 am

Lashmar
I'm not surprised, politicians are like moviestars they can't sign all the autographs or shake eveeryones hand or salute every 10 feet, on top of that the media and photographers only take shots at what they think makes the best photo or video. But I stand by comments regarding the seperation line, I've been watching this nation over here for decades fall deeper and deeper towards a fascist military industrial dictatorship and it doesn't matter if the democrats or republicans are in charge of the government their both as bad and the world should tremble in fear at what we will likely become if we don't reverse this course. IMO if any you truly believe in freedom and peace evacuate to as far off planet as quickly as you can and try to avoid the people of Earth's mistaken beliefs of might makes right and right makes might. Right makes peace and Peace makes right.
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