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Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby frrostedman » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:12 pm

I have to say I absolutely disagree with that viewpoint. God gives us free will , and it breaks His heart that we refuse to accept and act in His love. There is no way possible God would be "ordaining" the rape of small children, but yes, He has allowed certain events to happen.

These events are not "ordained" , but allowed because of the gift of free will. Many things have not been allowed because of the gift of graces granted through prayer, which is also by free will.


I'm sorry but, unless you take issue with Scripture, your position is indefensible. The bible says plain as day, that God knows everything that will happen before it happens. Unless God steps in to stop it, then it is necessarily defined as ordained (technically, it's "pre-ordained"). However, most Christians (perhaps not yourself) understand this and also understand that God can and does turn anything tragic and make something good come from it.


Humphreys: This is proof that orangetom and ora are not the same person. Unless I'm way off base, I believe orangetom will agree with me on this subject.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby humphreys » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:31 am

greeney2 wrote:Many people have diseases that are young and die, so now God exists in your mind to have caused that?


No, of course not!

Gah, so frustrating talking with you sometimes :roll:

You are so good at missing the point!

greeney2 wrote:I would say a scientist would laugh at you for concluding the one infant survivor only survived by luck, and the all 150 others happened to all have bad luck, on the same day, at the same time. Not a very logical conclusion from such a critical thinking mind.


So find a scientist who is laughing at that, I'd be interested to hear his comments. All the others did not have bad luck, it was likely they would die, the baby just had extremely good luck. Again, it happens.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby humphreys » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:34 am

frrostedman wrote:And besides, if you want to hold God ultimately responsible for all things, which you can and I encourage, then you need to think of all the wonderful things that anyone has done and give him credit for that too.


I totally agree. As an unbeliever, I of course do not give credit to God for anything, but believers are very apt to see a plane crash with one survivor and then thank god for it.

That makes no sense. Sure, one lived, but 150 died...
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:08 am

Luck is another one of those intangable things science can not touch. Is there really such a thing as Luck? Is anyone any luckyier than the next person, having it proven by DNA or some test, that prooves one is more prone to be lucky? Ever hear the saying "Lucky in Love"? Is that true, or is that just another misconception?

The ablitiy of science to somehow measure chemical brain activity for love, can it also measure the idea you are Lucky in Love matters? Is the term Chemistry really a actual physical interaction of 2 people, or just a saying, if you brain emits some chemical reaction? Is the cartoon of the throbbing heart emitting energy real, or just a symbol for expression? Matters of the heart, is it an expression of does the heart play a part in love? People act like love sick puppies when it happens, the old saying "heart throb". We are guided by the heart at times, but many would say its just your imagination, its all your brain. All these things togather, along with your Faith, make up your real spiritual self IMHO. I see believers as very spiritual people, and there have an aura that radiates it.
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Postby OraProNobis » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:29 am

Frrostedman wrote:
However, most Christians (perhaps not yourself) understand this and also understand that God can and does turn anything tragic and make something good come from it.


When your 6 year old daughter get brutally gang raped, and tortured until she dies a horrific death, and for years afterwards it is watched by siccos on the net , who get off on it, then you can come to me and tell me in all honesty that God "ordained" for that to happen, because there would be good that would come out of it.

Satan is evil, and he has his minnions that do His work,. God does not will this to happen, or predestines it, otherwise he would be willing to let Jesus suffer that torturous hurt , willingly, every day.

Tell me, what good can possibly come out of souls going to hell ? God does not want these souls to go to hell, nor has he "predestined" , or "ordained" it.

God has limited Himself to what He can do because of free will . He needs to be invited and invoked into our lives, much like our guardian angels.

Mary has explained that God will not intervene in our lives without asking Him through prayer, as well as fasting.

Many many evil things happen in this world, because people have allowed satan to rule in their hearts and minds , and not enough souls are praying for the souls of others.
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Postby humphreys » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:25 am

greeney2 wrote:Luck is another one of those intangable things science can not touch. Is there really such a thing as Luck? Is anyone any luckyier than the next person, having it proven by DNA or some test, that prooves one is more prone to be lucky? Ever hear the saying "Lucky in Love"? Is that true, or is that just another misconception?


Science can touch on this subject very easily.

Think someone is more lucky than someone else? That is extremely easy to test, scientifically, with a simple coin toss competition over a significant number of trials.

Luck doesn't exist per se, there are just statistics. When someone falls on the wrong side of those statistics we call them "unlucky", and those falling on the other side "lucky". It's all just chance. There are no lucky people, just people who have previously been lucky, and those who have previously been unlucky.

There is a subtle but important difference between the two statements - think about it.

The difference is, if we take any two people and put them in a coin toss situation, they will both be equally likely to win, regardless of their prior fortune, or lack of.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby at1with0 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:12 pm

frrostedman wrote:That goes beyond the bounds of logic.


Sigh... :lol: :lol: :lol:


OraProNobis wrote:I have to say I absolutely disagree with that viewpoint. God gives us free will , and it breaks His heart that we refuse to accept and act in His love. There is no way possible God would be "ordaining" the rape of small children, but yes, He has allowed certain events to happen.

These events are not "ordained" , but allowed because of the gift of free will. Many things have not been allowed because of the gift of graces granted through prayer, which is also by free will.


You imply evil is caused by free will but the Bible says otherwise:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby OraProNobis » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:06 pm


at1with0 wrote:

You imply evil is caused by free will but the Bible says otherwise:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV


I think you are twisting the meaning behind words in the bible.
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Postby at1with0 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Where?
"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:00 pm

humphreys wrote:
greeney2 wrote:Luck is another one of those intangable things science can not touch. Is there really such a thing as Luck? Is anyone any luckyier than the next person, having it proven by DNA or some test, that prooves one is more prone to be lucky? Ever hear the saying "Lucky in Love"? Is that true, or is that just another misconception?


Science can touch on this subject very easily.

Think someone is more lucky than someone else? That is extremely easy to test, scientifically, with a simple coin toss competition over a significant number of trials.

Luck doesn't exist per se, there are just statistics. When someone falls on the wrong side of those statistics we call them "unlucky", and those falling on the other side "lucky". It's all just chance. There are no lucky people, just people who have previously been lucky, and those who have previously been unlucky.

There is a subtle but important difference between the two statements - think about it.

The difference is, if we take any two people and put them in a coin toss situation, they will both be equally likely to win, regardless of their prior fortune, or lack of.



The coin toss example is actually a great science test project for younger kids to do in elementry school. But that is not a demonstration of Luck, it is a demonstation of odds. They have studies that deal with odds and probabilities. The odds do not changed in a coin toss no matter how many times the coin is flipped. One misconception and one of the biggers sucker thinks in Vegas, according to the vegas experts is the posting of what number has hit on roulette, and betting according to that number not coming up in a while. EAch roll of the ball, each coin toss is exactly the same odds, prior hits have nothing to do with it. The coin toss will never always be 50-50 odds. The know the odds on craps, and the combinations of each number. Craps may be a good example of probabilities. Your bet will have pay off odds, relating to the liklyhood of rolling a hard number before the 7 again. Their is a definate skill to working the crap table, my friends Dad was one who could do it. We are also talking about gambling games that have odds, so it is very predictable, mathmatical, and the probablity of beating known odds.

What about Luck when it comes to things that do not have hard mathmatical odds? Some people seem to have the luck to find good fortune where ever they go. some people are accident prone. Finding a buried treasure, or a picasso in a garage sale. Forgetting your keys and that minute saved you from an accident. Who hasn't said or felt lucky at one time or another? You really can not proove Luck is not real.
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