qmark wrote:That sounds nice and noble Humphreys, and I don’t believe you, but I do understand the need to be consistent with the rest of your posts.
You don't believe what? I didn't say I personally would be completely moral, I am, like you, a flawed, imperfect being, and apt to lapses of judgment, and occasional morally questionable behaviour. But a perfect being without human flaws, cannot simply do what he wants to his creation, otherwise Christian morality is nothing more than a misnomer.
'Might makes right' is not a framework for morality, otherwise Saddam's Iraq would have been the epitome of a moral nation.
qmark wrote:Actually, if your creation is acting in an immoral fashion, it would be morally incumbent of you to act upon it, and your action would be whatever you like with your creation. When speaking of morals we are speaking of morals from our human perspective and our human perspective is warped by sin. How can sinful man with limited knowledge even comprehend all that is God, let alone judge Him?
First off, you yourself are making moral judgements. Your first sentence is clearly making a moral judgement upon God, stating that he is morally incumbent to act upon the immoral behaviour of his creations.
It appears to me you're contradicting yourself, but admitting we can indeed talk about the kind of behaviour we should expect from a perfectly moral being is at least a good start. Once we are agreed at least to some extent we can judge God's actions, we can move on from there and recognize that some things are just plain wrong, whoever you are, and no matter how powerful you are.
A core tenet of morality is that any punishment must fit the crime - that's not only morality, it's justice, too. What you are saying is that an acceptable punishment for taunting is death, or grievous harm, but I don't think you really believe that, or you'd be supporting the severe beating of children for even the slightest misdemeanors.
I certainly would hope that is not a stance you take in your every day life.
Are you constantly in the habit of cursing people to God for the slightest attack on your person, like Elijah? Would you feel that justice had been done if your adversary was torn apart by wild animals?
qmark wrote:Not even in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned.
What is the big difference?
qmark wrote:Is judgment immoral?
Of course not. I judge, you judge, God judges.
However, the result of that judgement can be immoral, of course, like an eternity of torture in hell for lack of belief in a deity, or holding a child's hand over a cooker flame for stealing, and other examples.
qmark wrote:I agree, and this includes Elisha, which was being verbally attacked and we’ll never know if it was going to escalate into something far worse. Of course, God does know.
It certainly seemed like the end of it, as Elijah cursed and then left, but again, you're apologizing for God by suggesting that the taunting alone does not warrant a mauling by bears, and maybe these kids would have done something worse.
Sure, maybe all 42 of these poor kids were going to grow up to do horrendous things, the difference is, had Elijah not cursed them, they'd have had a life of free-will decisions to make, which could have made ammends for their behaviour, and changed their path.
I thought you believed in man's free-will to change, and to choose God, you are basically condemning these kids and denying them their free-will to do good things in the future, by condemning them for things they may do, or may have done - that's a violation of freedom of action.
You state that it is important to state these kids may not have been killed, but tell me, to you, what difference does it make? If God had torn the heads off these kids personally and fed them to their parents, your response would have been exactly the same - a shrug of the shoulders, and a "God can do whatever he wants". By asking for clarification on the details, you are clearly admitting that we can make judgements on God's behaviour, otherwise, the details are irrelevant.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."
- Sam Harris