The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

Jesus was born years earlier than thought, claims Pope

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:05 am

greeney2 wrote:You have no idea what I meant with that quote do you? Went right over 2 heads that is for sure. :roll:

Most people tend to use that passage in the manner you do Greeny2. However there is more here than what you quote.

As I stated Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins was speaking to the pharisees. And the pharisees were not interested at all in the woman caught in adultery...they were interested in entrapping Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins. And Jesus turned the tables on them. And this is also not the first time he did this nor the only time the pharisees tried to entrap him for he knew what they were attempting to do.

He also told the woman go and sin no more.

Once again..most ministers totally avoid what the elders taught me...that the pharisees were teaching that women get stoned for adultery and men do not.. For you cannot catch a woman in adultery the very act..without catching a man. Yet they brought only the woman.

The Pagan/Talmudic law the pharisees were keeping said that women get stoned for adultery and men do not.

This is proof that the they has switched gods and switched to a law other than the Law of Moses...they had switched to Paganism...and only "appeared" to be keeping the Law of Moses..when it was no such thing. And they were looking for judgement on this woman and by this also on Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins. They were indeed of their father the devil. For they were looking for judgement based on a falsehood..a lie and deception about the Law of Moses.

This is very similar to how our own leadership works today...including our MSM in deception and lies.

Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby greeney2 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:26 pm

My answer was in response the el lugal talking about those who go to church on Sunday, and just continue to remain in a state of committing the same mortal sins, again and again, which he defined. I asked him to clarify what he defined as these defilments, and what he meant, so responded to that, which was a list of Mortal sins for the most part. I didn't read lighting the candles on a birthday cake, or going to the high school dance. People who are an age of accountability, which clearly when you are no longer a child in mind and body. Generally speaking, most religions agree the ages I said. We are accountable for personal sins an some point in age. Unless you are a total nut, nobody would think a 3 year old even knows what a personal sin is. You may not agree with the concepts of Mortal and Venial Sins, but it is a common belief system of many people. Children become aware and accountable for these venial sins, and learn what Mortal sins are at early ages.

What about original sin? This is another issue that has a different inturpetation among Christian religions, forinstance the reasons Catholics believe in infant Baptism. That seems to be a very bitter dividing issue between Christian religions.
Posts: 9734
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby frrostedman » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:04 am

En-Lugal wrote:That's your problem, right there. There was no attack on Christianity.

Yes it was. And a false one.

You thought wrong.

Nope. You made a large number of false statements, and it's completely reasonable for any respondent to ask they be addressed one at a time. But when I asked, you got angry and pitched a fit, which has continued ever since.

The only one getting defensive is you. You also blew off the original post, you replied to.

Nope, I haven't displayed the least bit of defensiveness, and I didn't blow off the post... I addressed it in its entirety.

All you had to do was dispute what I said, you know, in that post you quoted but completely ignored?

Your claims are so severely detached from reality, I am wondering whether to take you serious. The rules of argument and debate are very clear. If someone claims something to be true--in that case it would be you--and another person takes issue with it--that would be me--then the original person has to back up the claim with facts and argument. Hence the common phrase, "The onus is upon the claimant." You are the claimant. I made crystal clear what my issues were with your initial, bogus claim, and since that time you've done nothing to prove your claim and have spent 2 long-winded posts berating me, attacking my character, and making completely unprovoked, unnecessary smug, snide remarks.

No, you decided to be petty and try to lay out ground rules and frame a debate around the meaning of Christian faith. Which is totally irrelevant, by the way.

And there you go again. How was I being petty by simply taking issue with your claim that the Christian faith is rooted in Paganism? And how is the meaning of Christian faith irrelevant when you made a claim centered squarely upon that very thing? Is this amateur hour, or what.

Since you like to assume, would it have helped if I'd said, "The Christian religion is so deeply rooted in Paganism I don't understand how most don't see it."? I'm guessing no, because then we wouldn't have that oh so important framed debate you're itching for. :roll:

My goodness, what a chip on your shoulder. Of course it makes all the difference in the world, and I have already addressed your corrected statement. I asked--which is completely fair--that you back up your claim with some facts, and said I would prefer that your argument be in your own words rather than what we usually get around here which is a copy/paste job from some anti-Christian website. I've been on this website for about 12 years now, and I've seen it all. Ask around, and the folks here will tell you; the vast majority of arguments against Christianity are backed up by super long copy/pastes from websites. I'm trying to avoid that because it doesn't make for meaningful debate when 1 person is taking 10 seconds to copy and paste 50 bullet points from a website, while the other one has to laboriously address each point in their own words, else "lose" the argument. I thought I would just go ahead and put it out there, so as to avoid that scenario. Here is a fact for you: Your choice of words was either poor, or, you should have the evidence to back up your claim readily available in your own words. Remember: You didn't just claim that some Christian beliefs are likely related to Paganism. No. You basically said it was so obvious that my religion is rooted in Paganism, that it baffles you that anyone would disagree with you. You placed so much emphasis on how obvious it is, that you raised the stakes. If, in defending your argument, you are forced to run to websites and do a copy/paste hit job, then by default you are demonstrating your claim is not near as obvious as you made it out to be.

If that were true you wouldn't have bothered to respond in the first place.

True. I never claimed to be very smart. In fact, I feel dumber than I already was--if that's possible--for trying this one last time to engage you. I don't know, call it intiution, or maybe it's dé ja vu, but I get this sneaking feeling that all I've done by addressing you point by point again, is exacerbate a useless back-and-forth, with the net result being wasted time and zero progress.

You're awfully arrogant and prideful, that is your undoing.

Right. And you are humble, innocent, gentle, and peaceful... and when asked, you support your claims with facts, rather than divert the discussion by attempting to assassinate the other's character. :thumbup:

And now that all that bs is behind us. I'll say 1 last time. You made a claim that the Christian "religion" or beliefs, or doctrine, or whatever... is so clearly rooted in Paganism that it is strange that so many people don't see it.

I deny your claim and now ask that you prove it. Until you do, your claim is, by default, precisely as described: HOLLOW.

And I'll add the following: baseless, pointless, meaningless, contrived, weak, unsupported, and ignorant.

(now if that doesn't coax you into taking a couple minutes to support your claim, then nothing will ;) )
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
User avatar
Posts: 3816
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:01 pm

Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:50 am

No instruction in both the Olde and New Testament to celebrate a birthday. For birthday celebrations are glorifying or praising the person and not God. Among the is known that all Glory and Praise are to God and not people/humans.
You will find the custom of birthdays among Pagans. Same with praise and glorifying of human traits....even idols.

The sun god or the sun travels across the horizon unto his death on the shortest day of the year...December 21/22. This is the day when the sun god dies. The tradition is three days in the grave and the sun god is raised and resurrected in the newness of life...on the 24/25th of December. The sun god is of Paganism.

There is no indication of when or what day Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins was born. If it was important we would have been instructed thus.
Those on meat and not on milk..know that the importance and significance of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins is His death and for whom He died. Not His birth.
The significance of His birth is that He was born sinless and born a King...not the day He was born.

His kingship is illustrated by the Magi bringing gifts ..for the custom was to bring gifts before a king.

But the day of His birth is absent.

The kicker for me ...after learning all of this about the holiday...was to discover how many Atheists celebrate christmas.

It was only later that I discovered that Washington going across the Deleware River in the boats ...after the British and Hessians ...was on December 25th. You could not have gotten the colonialists to do this on a holiday . One reason they were able to pull it off is because the Hessians were celebrating the holiday and were caught by surprise as were the British.

Nonetheless ..the point about when Jesus was born for the purposes of celebration comes from Paganism ..not from Christianity.

Same thing with birthdays...from Paganism. For even the Hebrews have no such instruction as well.

Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby En-Lugal » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:25 am

I'll get the ball rolling then.

Acts 17:28
28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c] ... ersion=NIV

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one--
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou are not dead. Thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Epimenides - "Cretica"

Poem to Zeus and quoted by Paul, who was a Jewish and Greek scholar, in the Bible. So I take it that Paul is telling us Zeus is the one true God and we are his offspring? ... rticle=809

Christians and Jews were not the first to suggest a living God. The fact that the Greek pantheon and culture played such an important part in the lives and culture of the Jews and early Christians, who drew heavily on both cultures to form Christianity is non-debatable.

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Is this confirmation that Zeus is the one true God of the Bible? I don't recall the Hebrew God ever accepting worship of any idol.

In my opinion, the reason Christians get so offended at this notion is because of their fierce competition with Paganism for two millennium now. I mean, it isn't enough to restructure all of your holy days to coincide and compete but you also had to demonize their religion. Claiming they worship a deity they don't even believe in. Satan is awfully similar to Samael, speaking of the book of Enoch this link should be an interesting read for you. ... 17378.html

Citation from a Jewish source on the fact that Sumerian Proverbs are in the Bible. ... 16139.html
Last edited by En-Lugal on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The modern definition of ‘racist’ is someone who’s winning an argument with a liberal.
User avatar
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:19 am

Postby at1with0 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:20 am

That Greek (and other pagan) notions influenced Christianity is, imo, missing the point which is, again my opinion, that salvation is at hand.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
Posts: 9185
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures

Postby greeney2 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:51 am

OT the lack of it being addressed, also says it is not forbidden, and this is a conclusion of your religion what that means, not everyone elses. Certainly not in the religion I was raised in, was this ever an issue, so it is neither a sin or wrong to me. Fact may be true the roots of many things in life go back to pagan times, or other periods, but I do not worship the Sun, nor am I living in that time. Where else did we evolve from but Judeo/Christian roots and its history of European history. We did not come from Buddist, Hindu, or Islamic cultures, the far east or middle east. Read the dictionary, very word we speak has roots to some Greek or Roman time. I do not see any conflict in my mind or my religion, that tells me celebrating these things in any way, takes from my Glory and Praise of the Lord. If anything they are based on the Love and appreciation of what God has given me, so if that is wrong, I do not know why. God also wants me to not forget to live the life he has given me, and if I didn't use it be be a good and loving Husband and Father, and Grandfather, that would be a greater sin.
Posts: 9734
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby orangetom1999 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:14 pm


You do what you want in your house...for you work, risk , and pay for it. That is your business.

I just know that the Christian way has been infiltrated by pagan beliefs and practices...for some time now..beginning with the council of Nicea back in 325 AD. Also I know that the Christians today are following the same traditions and infiltration by men of logic and reason as were the Hebrews of olde. And for their disobedience and rebellion by 70AD the Hebrews lost everything...and have still not gotten it back.

If the Hebrews get it back or I should say..try to get it back...I know it too will be a counterfeit..the temple mount....just like christmas today is a counterfeit tradition of men. For "It is finished" "A finished work." Nothing left for us to do but occupy until He returns for His sheep.

You can clearly see the churches today trying to fit in another man made pagan tradition of men by approving of sexuality in any guise men by logic and reason try to get approval. You also do not see any such instruction in the Word to gain or demand approval of others bases on ones sexulaity. Ever.

Some Elders call this "The argument from silence."

There is no such instruction in the Olde or New Testament for God's people to define themselves by their sexuality...and demand respect or approval on this basis...yet many churches are attempting to go exactly down this route in order to accomodate the "Traditions of men."
You do not need to be "Enlightened" in the man made tradition to see this pattern happening today..right in front of us.

And in like manner we have our own leadership/pharisees going along with this trend for votes. The other name for these man made traditions against the whoredom.

For this too is paganism. Rampant, Rabid, Runaway sexuality of any and all kinds. This is what is coming to this nation...clearly. It is also one of the reasons the Hebrews lost everything by 70 AD. It is one of the abominations , among many, for which they got caught up into when privily doing what the nations around them were doing...contrary to their instructions in the Law of Moses.

Since you posted about the National Christmas Tree...on another ..for you and other readers.

Jeremiah 10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

I was a bit stunned to see that someone had stolen the lot of trees which were to be sold by the boy scouts recently.

In like manner years ago someone stole a semi truck of girl scout cookies. But there is all kinds of wildlife out there.

Heathen is a term for pagan.

Thanks for your post,
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby En-Lugal » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:31 pm

At1with0 wrote:That Greek (and other pagan) notions influenced Christianity is, imo, missing the point which

Actually that is the point here.

13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ ... ersion=NIV

Do not kick against the goads lest you strike to your own hurt. Found in line 1624 of Agamemnon, a Pagan play.

Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 1 Corinthians 15:33

"Evil communications corrupt good manners." Quoted by Paul above from the play Thais by Menander. Also quoted by Euripedes’ in Aiolos ... attic.html

Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." Titus 1:12 Paul quoting Epimenides.

However the quote was in reference to Crete's belief that Zeus was mortal. ... radox.html

Job 1:21
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[a]
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
may the name of the Lord be praised.”

Sounds like a referrence to "Mother Earth" and very Pagan to me.

The story of Ganymede reminds me of the story of Enoch.

Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Genesis 5:24 ... ersion=NIV

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. Hebrews 11:5 ... ersion=NIV

Then of course there is the story of the flood.

But the angel of the Lord said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron? 2 Kings 1:3 ... ersion=KJV Clear evidence of Polytheism.

The persians, who defeated the Babylonians and freed the Jews, were Monotheistic and sent Ezra and Nehemiah to Israel to help them build the temple. The Persians thought the God of Israel was just another name for Mazda Ahura and so decided to help them. ... ersion=NIV

1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:

2 “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:

“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Any of his people among you may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem, and may their God be with them. 4 And in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.’”

It was this time that Monotheism began to take over but hadn't completely taken hold until the Books of Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings.

In the Book of Ezra we see that upon his return to Israel the Jews were not honoring the Law of God and were in fact behaving in a Polytheistic manner.

I thought id look up the relationship between Jesus, Innana and the planet Venus before heading out to work.

In the ANE the "morning star" was the planet Venus that rose before dawn to herald a new day. In Summer the morning star and the evening star were different names and gods even though it was the same planet Venus.

The Canaanites identified Astarte (Evening Star) and Asheroth (Morning Star) with the planet Venus (COS, 281 n.51). In the Old Testament Venus is called the "Queen of Heaven." Jeremiah 44:17 says, "We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem" (NIV). During the time of Manasseh they thought their prosperity was a result of their worship to the Queen of Heaven. ... ngstar.htm
The modern definition of ‘racist’ is someone who’s winning an argument with a liberal.
User avatar
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:19 am

Postby at1with0 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:26 pm

What I meant is that it is missing the point of Christianity not missing the point of the thread.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
User avatar
Posts: 9185
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:55 pm
Location: the coproduct of the amalgam of all structures


Return to Religion & Spirituality

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests