The Black Vault

En-Lugal wrote:Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: You and I will probably agree on many if not most conservative issues but in matters of religion, we will not.

frrostedman wrote:Most don't see it, because it's not true.

What makes it not true? That you deny it? I can deny that the sky is blue but that doesn't make it so.

Too many claims to address in the depth they deserve, all in one post.

So let's start with your first claim. You stated--as a fact--that the Christian faith is "deeply rooted in Paganism." You implied that it is such an obvious fact, you are baffled as to why most don't see it.

I denied your claim, and you insisted it's true whether I want to believe it or not.

Ok, well, the ball is clearly in your court here. I have 2 issues with the validity of your claim. (1) The Christian faith is defined in the bible as "being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see." I don't see how you can define that as so clearly rooted in Paganism. Paganism doesn't have a monopoly on faith, does it? In fact, every Pagan I ever came across (and I've known many in my life) don't seem to have much faith in anything at all. (2) If, however, what you meant by "Christian faith" is our doctrine, and I expect you did, then I still take issue and humbly request irrefutable proof. Afterall, it's not a matter of opinion because you didn't state it as such. Your claim was framed as absolute fact and therefore you should have ample, irrefutable proof.

The floor is yours.

I would prefer that you at least kick this off with a couple of your most powerful arguments, stated in your own words... as opposed to a copy/paste list of allegations and rhetoric from a Christians-Suck-Website.

Thanks in advance!

En-Lugal wrote:Most are hypocrites that believe they can live any way they wish and repent at the last moment.

What was the passage about "whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone"? It is never too late, while you are living.

Frostedman,

So let's start with your first claim. You stated--as a fact--that the Christian faith is "deeply rooted in Paganism." You implied that it is such an obvious fact, you are baffled as to why most don't see it.

To Believers on meat and not on milk...the systems of Paganism are identified by works verses Faith to get saved.

That one can earn their way unto Salvation. Do so many prayers...good works...put the monies in the box etc etc ad nauseum. This has it's origins in Paganism. Salvation by works.

And over the years many changes have been made not only in the Bibles..but in the Seminaries to enforce this system of Pagan Belief. If you are awake and thinking about the Word and what it states..you can see many of the preachers and ministers following exactly this pattern...with subtlety. Just like the serpent in the garden.

I have caught them many times ..on the tube as well as from the pulpit.

Also from Gail Riplinger ..."New Age Bible Versions" shows where the Bibles were changed over the years and why. You can find in this book charts of the various Bibles and the changes made through the years side by side for comparison...to reinforce Pagan doctrine and practice...and have it pass as Christian.

In like manner to which the Hebrew leadership overlaid Pagan doctrine..the traditions of men..on top of the Law of Moses and tried to get it to pass for the Law of Moses when it was no such thing.

As I have often stated here in this forum..the example of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 is textbook of this overlaying of Pagan traditions of men on top of the Law of Moses to pass as the Law of Moses when it was no such thing and also demonstrated that the Hebrews were worshiping another god..not the God of the Fathers and Moses.

I can make this same demonstration for our own Pagan government and how it too switched gods and told no one they have done this...while appearing to be something they most certainly are not. Just like politics..not the product advertised to the public.





Greeny2,

What was the passage about "whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone"? It is never too late, while you are living.greeney2

This was stated to the Pharisees in John 8 of which I quoted above where they had overlaid the traditions of men on top of the Law of Moses...as if it was the Law of Moses..when it was no such thing. And Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins knew this about the Hebrew leadership. This is why He told them Ye are of your father the devil.

You are using the very passage of which I spoke to demonstrate your point when it in fact supports my point. You are misquoting and misdirecting here.

For the woman caught in adultery here...was brought before Jesus..caught in the very act. They asked Jesus what say ye Rabbi??

But the Law of Moses said they both shall be stoned...not one. They brought only the woman ..they did not bring the man. The Law they were keeping said ...women get stoned for adultery ..men do not. This was not the Law of Moses...it was another law and another god. It was not the God of the Fathers. You are misusing and misquoting here...misdirecting..when the passage in fact..supports what I have been stating all along.

This passage and the whole business of the woman caught in adultery demonstrates the Paganism of the Hebrews...another god and another law...that they were practicing...not of the Law of Moses. Most ministers do not teach this about what these passages actually teach. They deceive and misdirect here on these passages and the story of the woman caught in adultery. We are never to think this through for ourselves and realize what is happening here.




We are to judge Righteous Judgement...after the Word. Which means we are to know the difference in traditions of men and the world..and what we are instructed to do or not to do in the Word.

We are also to come out from amongst them and be ye separate....this means we are to have the knowledge to judge what we see and know around us in this world in order to know the difference in the sin behind the traditions of men and what is taught to us in the Word of God.

Hope this helps and clarifies the point/points.

Orangetom

You have no idea what I meant with that quote do you? Went right over 2 heads that is for sure.

2PE 2:20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2PE 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2PE 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit,"and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

greeney2 wrote:

En-Lugal wrote:Most are hypocrites that believe they can live any way they wish and repent at the last moment.

What was the passage about "whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone"? It is never too late, while you are living.

That has nothing to do with continuing to live a sinful life after having supposedly been saved. That has to do with casting judgement on your fellow man.

Matthew 7:21-23. "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This is more what I was referring to, Greeney.

frrostedman wrote:Too many claims to address in the depth they deserve

Why bother then? If you can't be bothered to discuss things further, that's fine. Don't dismiss posts made by me, in my own words, and then make demands that I somehow prove or disprove some unrelated philosophical talking point of your choosing. If you're looking for an essay on the Christian faith, I'm sure there's an ample supply of them on the internet. I have no interest in writing yet another for you. Especially if your entire defense amounts to, "nuh-uh".

frrostedman wrote:as opposed to a copy/paste list of allegations and rhetoric from a Christians-Suck-Website.

Oh come on now. Really? Going to play the victim card now, are we? Perhaps it would be better if I posted a knowingly deceitful bullet-point list of rhetoric about Paganism from a Christians-are-awesome-website?

En-Lugal wrote:For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world

Such as? Example

En-Lugal wrote: For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them

Everyone reaches an age of accountability usually by the time you are 12.

En-Lugal wrote:

frrostedman wrote:Too many claims to address in the depth they deserve

Why bother then? If you can't be bothered to discuss things further, that's fine. Don't dismiss posts made by me, in my own words, and then make demands that I somehow prove or disprove some unrelated philosophical talking point of your choosing. If you're looking for an essay on the Christian faith, I'm sure there's an ample supply of them on the internet. I have no interest in writing yet another for you. Especially if your entire defense amounts to, "nuh-uh".

I notice that you cut off my quote. And took the most important part out of it. I said you made too many claims to address in the depth they deserve ---->>>> in one post. So I humbly asked that we break up your attack on Christianity--which was on several fronts simultaneously--into smaller pieces so that we could deal with the issues deeply enough. That way we could avoid boring everyone (and each other) to death with essays thousands of words long in each reply.

I thought my request was reasonable; and yet, you reacted defensively and completely blew me off.

Well if you can't be bothered to back up even one of your claims, then obviously you aren't to be taken seriously. And that's ok by me, as I have other things I could be doing with my time, other than schooling you on why your (evidently hollow) claims don't hold water. You saved me the effort. Thank you.

frrostedman wrote:your attack on Christianity

That's your problem, right there. There was no attack on Christianity.

frrostedman wrote:I thought my request was reasonable

You thought wrong.

frrostedman wrote:you reacted defensively and completely blew me off.

The only one getting defensive is you. You also blew off the original post, you replied to.

frrostedman wrote:Well if you can't be bothered to back up even one of your claims, then obviously you aren't to be taken seriously.

All you had to do was dispute what I said, you know, in that post you quoted but completely ignored? No, you decided to be petty and try to lay out ground rules and frame a debate around the meaning of Christian faith. Which is totally irrelevant, by the way. Since you like to assume, would it have helped if I'd said, "The Christian religion is so deeply rooted in Paganism I don't understand how most don't see it."? I'm guessing no, because then we wouldn't have that oh so important framed debate you're itching for.

frrostedman wrote:And that's ok by me, as I have other things I could be doing with my time

If that were true you wouldn't have bothered to respond in the first place.

frrostedman wrote:other than schooling you on why your (evidently hollow) claims don't hold water.

You're awfully arrogant and prideful, that is your undoing.

frrostedman wrote:You saved me the effort.

What effort?

frrostedman wrote:Thank you.

Oh no, thank you.

greeney2 wrote:Such as? Example

How about continuing to have an affair? How about a serial rapist or murderer who confesses, is saved yet continues? How about a petty thief continuing to steal? Maybe someone who continues to beat his wife instead of loving and honoring her as he would the church? I'm talking about knowingly walking the path of sin, greeney2. Things that could easily be corrected and avoided after being saved.

greeney2 wrote:Everyone reaches an age of accountability usually by the time you are 12.

Right, I know that. What does that have to do with continuing to sin after salvation? I know it's never too late for someone to saved, greeeney2. That's not what I was talking about at all. my example above is what I was referring to.

I wanted to know to what degree you referred to defilments of the world. Pretty much a listing specific sins what most regard as Mortal Sins, to a Catholic. It proves my point about different doctrines and theology, and ways of religious thinking from the extreme to the moderate. Some see defilments as things like Greed, hate, self indulgence, pride, conciet, etc.( in many cases they are), where just about anything within, can be viewed as sins. What one religion concludes to be a sin and what another concludes is a very wide contrast. Catholics also teach the difference between Mortal and Venial Sins, and I think their is not a soul on earth that doesn't go though a week without venial sins. That is a much different thing than continually keeping your soul, in a condition of Mortal Sins.

I think we all agree that a reasonable age of accountability is probably middle school age and older, where you are no longer a baby or small child. For many this is the age of usual Confirmation, in many religions if they are ready. An age where you know right from wrong, and you know what is and is not a sin. Yes we do go from week to week and fail, but we also renew ourselves with things like Confession, Prayers, and Communion, and absolve our sins. That is not to say we can just go out and spend the week, making a few new mortal sins. The mind and body may put up a good act, but the soul always knows when it is not true, and God always can see our soul.

greeney2 wrote:I wanted to know to what degree you referred to defilments of the world. Pretty much a listing specific sins what most regard as Mortal Sins, to a Catholic. It proves my point about different doctrines and theology, and ways of religious thinking from the extreme to the moderate. Some see defilments as things like Greed, hate, self indulgence, pride, conciet, etc.( in many cases they are), where just about anything within, can be viewed as sins. What one religion concludes to be a sin and what another concludes is a very wide contrast. Catholics also teach the difference between Mortal and Venial Sins, and I think their is not a soul on earth that doesn't go though a week without venial sins. That is a much different thing than continually keeping your soul, in a condition of Mortal Sins.

I think we all agree that a reasonable age of accountability is probably middle school age and older, where you are no longer a baby or small child. For many this is the age of usual Confirmation, in many religions if they are ready. An age where you know right from wrong, and you know what is and is not a sin. Yes we do go from week to week and fail, but we also renew ourselves with things like Confession, Prayers, and Communion, and absolve our sins. That is not to say we can just go out and spend the week, making a few new mortal sins. The mind and body may put up a good act, but the soul always knows when it is not true, and God always can see our soul.

Wow!! Age of accountability ..reasonable age...middle school or older??

What about Original Sin??? The sin of Adam??


Orangetom