The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

General Discussion Topics

ignore fukushima at your peril !!

The Black Vault Message Forums has a considerable number of niche forums to place your post. If you can not find a home for it, and the topic doesn't fit anywhere else, then post it here.

Postby Alalu » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:21 pm

The anti-nuke crowd in Japan has been very strong in the past and I'll bet there are things happening that we are not hearing about in the media. Japan had no choice, like most industrial countries, but to use nuclear in the mix of energy generation. They couldn't just keep buying more oil.

We can plan for terrorists, failed equipment and most natural disasters but mother nature can always deliver a punch we're not ready for, and therefore if you are going to use nuclear reactors, you must have a plan to deal with them when something catastrophic happens. Otherwise, you're not doing what you should (being kind).

The company running the Fukushima reactors and the government are both to blame.
User avatar
Alalu
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:23 pm

Postby mael » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:01 am

Alalu wrote:The anti-nuke crowd in Japan has been very strong in the past and I'll bet there are things happening that we are not hearing about in the media. Japan had no choice, like most industrial countries, but to use nuclear in the mix of energy generation. They couldn't just keep buying more oil.

We can plan for terrorists, failed equipment and most natural disasters but mother nature can always deliver a punch we're not ready for, and therefore if you are going to use nuclear reactors, you must have a plan to deal with them when something catastrophic happens. Otherwise, you're not doing what you should (being kind).

The company running the Fukushima reactors and the government are both to blame.


"Anti-nuke crowd." Hmmm. In the last stages of assimilation I'd say. The groups that have not been infiltrated are under scrutiny and get no air-time. The members also lose their jobs and suddenly get a lot of attention from the police for anything they can get them with.

Always at the very beginning of a protest, the police are just observing, but after a while the police are ordered to utilize specific actions designed to minimize the effect and prevent news of protests from reaching anything but a local audience.

There are still protests probably every day somewhere here. News of them never reaches the lamestream media unless the story can be twanged to cast them in a bad light.

Protesters are corralled during the day and at night they switch all the streetlights off and ban news helicopters over the area. Then the police stand back and "private" security teams wade in, swipe the cameras and cart off the more effective of the crowd.

Yes. Japan was forced into using nukes. Not so much by any immediate or foreseen shortage of electrical power - but that's another story.

We can plan for terrorists, failed equipment and most natural disasters but mother nature can always deliver a punch we're not ready for, and therefore if you are going to use nuclear reactors, you must have a plan to deal with them when something catastrophic happens. Otherwise, you're not doing what you should (being kind).

Bs. You can plan for accidents and make something foolproof but you can't make something proof from deliberate malice.

Six reactors at Dai Ichi each with three independent back-up systems and all 18 went wrong at the same time? Are you serious?

First line of defence is the diesel gennies. If you recall the earliest stages of the meltdown you may recall that the back-up gennies actually worked. The engines could be got going. Some of the tanks were moved, but the generators were housed in waterproof containers with air inlets on long pipes. So some people want to say that they were flooded because the water was higher than had been envisaged when the generators were installed - but they're top-of-the-range diesel engines with all the ancilliary equipment connected with the highest quality watertight fittings by professionals.

So all six gennies wouldn't work? Not really. The problem was that they worked, but they couldn't drive the pumps because the programme running the electrics had been modified.

The military air-lifted in generators quite capable of supplying the power but they were all no-go.

The second line of defence, the battery back-up was also useless. These aren't laptop batteries, these banks of batteries could supply megawatts for several hours - well they were all useless. Again, the military air-lifted batteries but they wouldn't work either. The media told the peons the battery banks' connections were mismatched. I practically fell off my chair at that explanation because if there's one thing the Japanese excel at then it's electrics! Wrong plugs! my posterior.

Third line of defence - hand operated valves - wouldn't budge. The operating system's software had rigged the valves to stay shut.

So what was wrong with all the reactors? Why did they overheat? Do you know? Do you have any idea? T'was that the very pumps themselves were broken. As with the centrifuges in Iran, the Israeli-financed stuxnet worm caused the pumps to overspin and self-destruct. Nothing was going to shift the pumps because the integral 3-phase megawatt motors were destroyed.

Well, no one has to believe me, and frankly I don't care. The reactors were uncontrollable and the existing fail-safe system was 100% compromised. Even air-lifted gennies couldn't be made to work because everything depended on the pumps themselves remaining operable. The last option of simply venting the pressure was prevented by the valves being seized.

TEPCO are a typical for-profit company and it is absurd to think such a company would be interested in the welfare of the affected citizens - but - the government should have booted them off-site and put the military in there or someone else without a vested interest. TEPCO sponsors the whores in J politics, and they just got together and found the best way to get richer out of the disaster. Still today the government sessions are dominated by Fukushima and radiation issues, but it's always the same with blame being moved around in a circle and nothing getting done to improve the situation for the people, the nation or for that matter, the world.

Personally I think it's the people running the banks who are the root cause of this, and by the way, the international banksters were the very first to leave Tokyo. THEY even left their multi-billion hi-rise buildings with years left on the leases. They were gone the next day.

As I said, it's you in the States who have the most to lose over this. It looks like someone there doesn't think it will matter because in a couple or few years your W coast will be uniformly radiated with S California a bit higher than the rest of the W coast.

Unless this is stopped and fixed, the whole planet will be affected seriously. Now, Oz, NZ & S America are relatively uncontaminated, but give it a few more years and it won't make much difference where you are.

The national and international response of this disaster is incomprehensible to me. I'd like to know why they don't give an intercourse. Seems THEY know something we don't.
User avatar
mael
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby greeney2 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:23 am

If this is all true about the west coast of the USA, what will that do worldwide just from what is going to happen in the ocean between, including international food supplies all coming from Pacific ocean fishing? There are a lot of places between the USA/Canada coast and Japan that will be affected.

As I said, this is a engineering failure and how many more plants does Japan have with the same potential for failure, considering your earthquake prone area? History has proven that Man makes bad decisions where and how to settle, and what things they do, in the shadow of impending disasters, like living under a volcano, or building where tsunami can strike within minutes.

Anyway, hope you are well and physically not been affected by this, and a good distance from it, but even if you are the other end of Japan, it is still in your own back yard. I can not imagine if the San Onofre plant would have a melt down, the impact on Los Angeles area? or up north the Diablo Cyn plant in San Lius Obispo? The have decided the San Onofre plant will be shut down due to problems there.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby mael » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:17 pm

"If this is true..." G2. You can answer your own question if you are capable of processing extremely simple information regarding the prevailing winds and sea current, then noting where Fukushima is situated and then remembering where you are living.

A lot of places between Japan and the W coast of America? Really? Spain? Egypt? Atlantis? I seem to recall there's pretty much only Hawaii and a few scattered miniscule islands dotted here and there. Japan will be uniformly polluted with radioactive particulates in five to ten years. Now, only the area immediately surrounding Fukushima is getting hot bits dropping on them. The pre-vail-ing wind is kindly bringing it to you, personally Mr. G2. Not only is the wind bringing you this glorious tribute, the sea is also transporting it over to you. That's tough bickies and you shouldn't have put America on the East side of Japan if you didn't want to get dusted in radioactive particulates so it's your own fault (really). :)

Not just the plants in Japan, the plants all over the planet made decades ago are all creaking at the seams. Gawd knows you Americans are only sans a meltdown like is happening in Fukushima due to the grace of Dog and luck rather than due to proper care, maintenance and planning.

Good job about Onofre. The fewer of those bastids running the better. Talk about the sword of Damacles!

I am getting used to my third arm, and the inconvenience of having to buy two sets of shoes every time is offset by my new ability to fly.

So what's the answer to your your question?
User avatar
mael
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby greeney2 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:30 pm

My Answer is we are back to old times again, where I say something and you try to prove me wrong using sarcasm. :o Glad you are an expert that a straight line from Japan will hit only Southern California, but the truth is your debris has hit our coast much further up in Oregon/Washington. Mostly firewood and things that float. That is about 1500 miles north. Have no idea what kind of radiation they have detected yet, if any, that came airborne towards us. Yes you are right, between us is probably only Hawaii, that only has a population of 1.5 Million or so, I guess they do not matter when it comes to making a joke, to make light of it. :(

Just today Japan had another 7.3 earthquake, showing the potential for additional such disasters will not go away. The USA at least made a decision that one plant, San Onofre would remain shut down, and others are being considered, I wonder if Japan has made any such decision to shut down plants now?
greeney2
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby Alalu » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:20 pm

I don't know how much of what Mael said is true but all reactors have overpressure reliefs. If those did not work then that is a very big problem. In the US those reliefs are tested regularly. Why would someone want to deliberately stop the rescue of Fukushima? I thought the explosions that happened were because of the hydrogen buildup.

Btw, I used to drive by San Onofre from time to time when I lived in S.D. And I always thought that was a bad place to put a reactor.

In the Navy reactors are operated at an extreme high degree of safety and the lack of accidents has proven that the system works.

I read an article today about the problems with the cleanup crews and organized crime being involved. Not good.
User avatar
Alalu
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:23 pm

Postby greeney2 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:39 pm

I know what you mean about SO when you pass it. All of a sudden you see these ominous dome structures right next the the ocean, and you just get a unsafe feeling, glad when you have passed it and heading away. :lol: However, even know we have earthquakes, the threat of offshore big ones in that area is slim, plus I do not think we are very prone to tsunami. The are in great danger of that up in Washington with major faults off shore, and real possibility of a tsunami within minutes.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby magonia17 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:06 am

The consequences here are going to be long lasting, be it to the environment as well as the human cost of the radiation. I do not understand with the historical events that have occurred, why Japan had nuclear reactors in the first place. It is an island, wave power, wind power thermo under ground heating etc., would of been better options.
User avatar
magonia17
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:10 am

Postby greeney2 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:05 am

Even with all the coast line in the USA we do not have any wave power power plants that I know of. We take advantage of Hydroelectric but that has a impact building dams. Wind power requires a large footprint from what I have seen but usually in places where people are not living. Geothermal is a great option but in terms of how much it feeds the grid system, it is a very small %. Nuclear obviously gives a big bang for the buck, small footprint, long lasting, and large output. Except for the obvious it is a good option, however, when it fails, it can be catastrophic.

We need a lot less people, this is just one of the predicted problems when I was young, what happens when the population is too large. We are seeing food, and natural resources depleted. The need for energy is forcing many bad decisions, like this one.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9589
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby mael » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:16 am

greeney2 wrote:My Answer is we are back to old times again, where I say something and you try to prove me wrong using sarcasm. :o Glad you are an expert that a straight line from Japan will hit only Southern California, but the truth is your debris has hit our coast much further up in Oregon/Washington. Mostly firewood and things that float. That is about 1500 miles north. Have no idea what kind of radiation they have detected yet, if any, that came airborne towards us. Yes you are right, between us is probably only Hawaii, that only has a population of 1.5 Million or so, I guess they do not matter when it comes to making a joke, to make light of it. :(

Just today Japan had another 7.3 earthquake, showing the potential for additional such disasters will not go away. The USA at least made a decision that one plant, San Onofre would remain shut down, and others are being considered, I wonder if Japan has made any such decision to shut down plants now?

No, I didn't say the radiation would be coming at you in a straight line. Neither did I say it would only affect Southern California.

I am well aware some debris has reached the other side of the Pacific, and assure you it is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Enjoy! :)

Relatively few people know what the radiation levels are in the States other than folks who possess or have access to a geiger counter or similar device. This is due to the detecting stations being offline, data deliberately being concealed or obfuscated and some people being deliberately deaf. Whatever you do, don't start looking into why there has been a spike in cancers and people exhibiting symptoms of mild, chronic radiation sickness.

Hawaii? I wasn't having a joke at their expense. However, to expound on their immediate risk of deletarious effects resulting from radioactive particulates for breakfast, I'd say they were pretty much stuffed. Never mind, the lizards will likely survive.

Yes! Another large EQ. I think they downgraded it several times and settled for it being a 7.1m or a maximum 4 in the Japanese seismic intensity scale. (3 at GZ).

Presently there are zero nukes operating in Japan. The ptb are frantically trying to get them switched back on. Protesters always try to prevent the nukes being re-commissioned, but the ptb use various dirty tricks to get rid of them. They even arrest protesters who are dying of radiation-related ailments who have traveled from Fukushima... octogenarians in wheelchairs if-you-please. I suppose this is a bit nicer than the tasing and body slams they'd get in the States.

Must be interesting trying to operate the equipment to remove the (damaged) fuel rods 100' in the sky from a wobbling and crumbling building and move them to trucks. I think the rods have to be completely surrounded by water at all times, so they need to put a kind of box around each rod whilst it is in its place in the pool before hoisting it out. Well I have to say I'm pretty pessimistic about the chances of removing all the thousands of rods without cocking it up and negating the whole exercise, but then I also have to remember that I didn't think that sfp4 building would still be standing after one year, so maybe I'm overly negative. That is, I'd be pretty doubtful they could do it if the team given the job was top notch. You have to think carefully about what I'm about to say:-

TEPCO is calling the shots. It's a for-profit entity. All work goes out to tender. The cheapest quote that claims to be able to accomplish the work gets given the job.

There is a severe shortage of "heros" willing to get up-close-and-personal to the smoking carcasses of multiple blown-up reactors, and the thought that largely unqualified (unqualifiable) people will be the ones moving the knobs is entirely disquieting. The equipment they will be using is largely untested and so far seems highly prone to breaking (down). There are several groups of engineers and scientists from large corporations such as Hitachi and Toshiba, and even though the whole nation -not to mention the planet is at risk over this, everything worthwhile is kept secret and has to go through the patents process and copyright. Well! ... what if Hitachi or Fuji Heavy Industries have to go through the courts to decide which should get what per-centage of the royalties of a joint-project? What if the paint they use has been discovered to cause diarrhoea in gerbils?

Now imagine a team of monkeys working massive cranes lifting nuclear fuel assemblies during a 7.1m quake and this almost certainly closer to the reality than the video-ops THEY garnish for the TeeVee watching class!
User avatar
mael
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion Topics

  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest