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DID YOU PRAY THAT PRAYER AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS FIRST POST TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART?

YES
2
10%
NO
7
35%
I ALREADY PRAYED/ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST INTO MY HEART
7
35%
OTHER
4
20%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby Tairaa » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:44 pm

If 66 books of testimony that have stood up to thousands of years of scrutiny doesn't qualify as a "smidgen" of evidence, then what does?


Uhm... A bit of evidence. Stook up against scrutiny? In what sense? In the sense that it's still around, yeah, but that's about it.

God is just.

Why are you so worried about some lost tribe anyway? You've got life all figured out on your end, eh?


I'm not so naive as to think I have life all figured out. Are you naive enough to assume that about a total stranger?

I'm guessing that to you, the only thing that could be fair is for every single person who ever lived by given a free pass.


You guessed wrong.

That sounds a little harsh. Does the bible really say that? We're just guessing and if we guess wrong we burn forever? Well, it's definitely not guesswork on my part. Is it for you?


No matter what you think you know about your God, you don't know anything about him. You know what you've read, but you don't know how true it is or if it's true at all, in that respect it is guesswork. Sorry if you disagree, but whether or not you agree you have no facts with regards to your god.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby vulcan6gun » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:26 pm

IT LET ME VOTE TWICE! AND CHANGE IT 3 TIMES! :lol:

What can I say, I was bored (and curious) and exercising Free Will.

Frodo, you need to learn how to put things into appropriate terms if you want people to understand. Of course, there's still no guarantee they'll agree, since they have Free Will.

Now...if you present God as The Great Webmaster, and tell them the Bulletin Board of Life has rules, called Commandments, you might get their attention because it's terminology they'll accept.

Heaven is an Eternal Hard Disk, because they have to be Saved to get there, and if they don't follow the Board's Commandments, they still can't get there.

Hell (ahem: the Lake of Fire) would be The Recycling Plant, where they'll be unmade...erased...utterly, completely destroyed in horribly painful ways.

For the Catholics, Purgatory would be The Landfill, where they'll languish for many years before being Saved or Recycled.

Tairaa, there is one teensy thing you missed: if you create something intelligent and don't give it free will, you have a blindly obedient slave that will never use the intelligence you gave it. If you have both intelligence and free will, then you have no restrictions, but it's like honoring a contract. If you don't fulfill it you don't get the reward.
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Postby Lashmar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:27 am

What amazes me is this right:

1. Why is it you Prayer to god? If it gets answered then it’s some sort of miracle. If it doesn’t get answered it’s the will of god, oh well no big loss.

Basically if that’s your answer then why waste your time? It makes no sense.

2. How pissed off would you be if you were god with all these people trying to talk to you on your day off? I’d be really, really pissed off that that.

Alright that was a joke but even so, I’d still be pissed off.

3. Why does the pope live like a king if he’s meant to like a humble life? You can’t tell me the guy lives a humble lifestyle.

4. Why was it when science first came around the church was very happy with it but when science started to question god they changed their tune very quickly.

5. Why has Christianity incorporated so many of the old beliefs? Surely that’s bastardizing the one true faith?

6. I’ve asked this before but I’ll ask it again, mainly because I forgot the answer. :oops: Why did people go from believing in things they could see (trees, the sun and such stuff) to believing in something they couldn’t?
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Postby Tairaa » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:34 am

Tairaa, there is one teensy thing you missed: if you create something intelligent and don't give it free will, you have a blindly obedient slave that will never use the intelligence you gave it. If you have both intelligence and free will, then you have no restrictions, but it's like honoring a contract. If you don't fulfill it you don't get the reward.


Well, I'm still waiting for even the teensiest clue that God might be real. So far... A whole lot of nothing.


I never signed a contract. Nature has imprinted on us the idea of god, but god has given us no knowledge of himself so why would I believe in him out of blind faith? Why not Hinduism or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or, or, or, or etc?
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby vulcan6gun » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:21 am

Tairaa wrote:I never signed a contract. Nature has imprinted on us the idea of god, but god has given us no knowledge of himself so why would I believe in him out of blind faith? Why not Hinduism or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or, or, or, or etc?
Not a literal contract, turkey! :P

I didn't set out to attempt answering so many questions, I was illustrating the point of Free Will. :P

I'm not always a good Christian and definitely not a Bible-thumper, though I have fun with it from time to time...ask Cole ( :P ). One of the things we're taught is not to be holier-than-thou, we're not supposed to assume we're right and others are wrong, yet we're supposed to promote our faith...neat trick, huh? :?

Anyway, I'll not get on a soapbox and preach, partly because with my luck the d*mn thing will collapse and I'll break my back (again). I will, however, suggest that maybe you seek someone who can answer your questions to your satisfaction. Good luck with that, and go with the blessing of God, whether you like it or not! :P :lol:
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Postby Lashmar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:32 pm

Read between the lies
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:33 pm

Tairaa wrote:Uhm... A bit of evidence. Stook up against scrutiny? In what sense? In the sense that it's still around, yeah, but that's about it.

The bible is thousands of years old and is still today the most popular book in all the world. If it were proven patently false, no one would give it much attention, would they.

I'm not so naive as to think I have life all figured out. Are you naive enough to assume that about a total stranger?

No, hence the question mark after I suggested you think you have have things figured out. It's just that you seem more concerned about the fate some hypothetical lost tribe than your own.

I'm guessing that to you, the only thing that could be fair is for every single person who ever lived by given a free pass.


You guessed wrong.

I'm glad to hear that. So exactly what kind of people shouldn't be given a free pass?

No matter what you think you know about your God, you don't know anything about him.

That's a strange thing to assume about a 'total stranger' as you put it.

You know what you've read, but you don't know how true it is or if it's true at all, in that respect it is guesswork.

In my case it's not guesswork at all. Do you think Christians read the bible, put it down, then just decide to believe it?

Sorry if you disagree, but whether or not you agree you have no facts with regards to your god.

I have facts--facts that are from my own personal experience. I guess if we want to get technical, you're right... none of us knows anything for a fact. For all you know, you are just brainmatter in cryofreeze, and all this is just a dream. But if we want to speak practically and not hypothesize about stuff like that, I definitely have facts. Maybe one day you will too and then you'll understand.
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Postby Tairaa » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:11 pm

The bible is thousands of years old and is still today the most popular book in all the world. If it were proven patently false, no one would give it much attention, would they.


That has nothing to do with anything. The Bible is wrong about stuff, the Earth wasn't created in 7 days etc. The problem is you can interpret it to be anything you want.
Nostradamus!!

It's just that you seem more concerned about the fate some hypothetical lost tribe than your own.


So answer the question. What about everyone born before approximately 0 BCE? What about everyone who's died before they've been able to think for themselves or those who have never even heard of your God? What happens to them? They are burnt in hell forever for their ignorance?

I'm not more concerned with them then myself I'm using it as a logical argument. If a supremely logical being who created all and knows all did that he would very clearly be a sadistic being. In fact a lot of your rules dictate this. A mass murderer who accepts jesus into his heart before he dies is forgiven yet a man who lives a good and humble life doing no wrong to anyone goes to hell. Sadism.

That's a strange thing to assume about a 'total stranger' as you put it.

It's not an assumption.

In my case it's not guesswork at all. Do you think Christians read the bible, put it down, then just decide to believe it?

Yes. Whether or not you conciousless decide or if you disguise your conscious decision it is a decision. I've got news for you, I've read a great deal of the bible and also a bit of the old testament. God never talked to me. If he did for you and not for me then that's another sign that he's a sadist. But to me it seems more logical that it's merely those who want to believe who hear him.

Look. Believe what you want. I have my beliefs. People need that, you take whatever it is you take from it. But at the end of the day, they are beliefs. You have on facts about them, nor do I.

I have facts--facts that are from my own personal experience. I guess if we want to get technical, you're right... none of us knows anything for a fact. For all you know, you are just brainmatter in cryofreeze, and all this is just a dream. But if we want to speak practically and not hypothesize about stuff like that, I definitely have facts. Maybe one day you will too and then you'll understand.


First of all personal experience doesn't equal fact. Not by a long shot. Especially when that personal experience is majorly rooted in emotion.

Second, in a practical sense you read a book and believed it. Which is NOT the same as me reading scientific literature and believing it. The difference is that of evidence, the bible has no evidence. You believe on blind faith, I decide what I believe in from conclusions drawn upon the available evidence. Huge difference.
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."
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Postby frrostedman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 pm

Tairaa wrote:That has nothing to do with anything. The Bible is wrong about stuff, the Earth wasn't created in 7 days etc. The problem is you can interpret it to be anything you want.
Nostradamus!!

If the bible can be interpreted to mean anything, how is it necessarily wrong about stuff?

So answer the question. What about everyone born before approximately 0 BCE? What about everyone who's died before they've been able to think for themselves or those who have never even heard of your God? What happens to them? They are burnt in hell forever for their ignorance?

The bible doesn't say one way or the other what happens to people who died before, or never heard of, Christ. You and I can take guesses, but what's the point of guessing. Hypothesizing about the fate of people we'll never know makes for interesting discussion I guess, but it's pretty irrelevant to us especially since we just don't know. I know that based on the character of God, my opinion is: anyone who died not knowing about Christ, is judged according to merit.

A mass murderer who accepts jesus into his heart before he dies is forgiven. yet a man who lives a good and humble life doing no wrong to anyone goes to hell. Sadism.

I cringe at the phrase "accepts Jesus" but anyway I know what you're saying so I'll move on. Sin... be it murder, abuse, adultery, stealing, and lying, is that. SIN. We all sin, fall short of righteousness, and fall short of worthiness. All of us. Jesus said Himself, No one is good but God alone. It may seem crazy to you but we are all on equal footing when it comes to Judgment Day.

That's a strange thing to assume about a 'total stranger' as you put it.

It's not an assumption.

Ok, well then it's ignorant and arrogant.

In my case it's not guesswork at all. Do you think Christians read the bible, put it down, then just decide to believe it?

Yes. Whether or not you conciousless decide or if you disguise your conscious decision it is a decision.

Think about what you are saying. Someone can just sit down and decide to believe something? You know, as hard as I try, I guarantee you I can't make myself believe in the Tooth Fairy. I could read 500 books about the Tooth Fairy and still, it would require a miracle for me to believe. If you really think that someone could change himself from nonbeliever to believer--just by conscious decision--a decision that has deep, problematic, life-changing implications--then you, to put it politely, are quite naive. "You know Marge, I've been thinking... starting tomorrow, I'm going to start believing in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. What the heck, I'll give it a whirl!" That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

I've got news for you, I've read a great deal of the bible and also a bit of the old testament.

Redundant statement, but go ahead.

God never talked to me.

Ok, that's fine. I had a different experience. I didn't pick up the Bible until after God entered my life. I tried to read it a few times as a nonbeliever but I got sick of it and put it down after a couple of chapters, everytime. Bored the living daylights out of me and made no sense to boot.

If he did for you and not for me then that's another sign that he's a sadist.

He hasn't accepted you yet. That doens't mean He never will.

But to me it seems more logical that it's merely those who want to believe who hear him.

I'm sure there are people out there who are in a state of disbelief but want to hear God so bad their imagination plays tricks on them (or they subconciously and intentionally, trick themselves).

First of all personal experience doesn't equal fact. Not by a long shot. Especially when that personal experience is majorly rooted in emotion.

I can't understand that one. A personal experience can still be a factual experience without the presence of any emotion.

Second, in a practical sense you read a book and believed it. Which is NOT the same as me reading scientific literature and believing it. The difference is that of evidence, the bible has no evidence. You believe on blind faith, I decide what I believe in from conclusions drawn upon the available evidence. Huge difference.

You have absolutely zero evidence other than text and instructional videos that, for example, the theory of evolution has any merit whatsoever. What you call "evidence" is nothing but a book that makes claims and has a few names attached to it of people that you don't know. How are you any different than someone who reads the bible, then reads several books that support the bible, all written by highly educated scholars?
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Postby Lashmar » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:15 am

If the bible can be interpreted to mean anything, how is it necessarily wrong about stuff?


Because there is no fact in it. Fact is something that is undisputable. Something can hardly be factual if it can have many different meanings. Therefore it must be wrong in many different parts, because not one part can be proven as fact and very few parts are agreed on.

I think I’m right in saying only Catholics believe in purgatory yes? If so then they must be wrong because none of the others do; or maybe the others are wrong, in which case why does god let them continue believing in something that is wrong? :?



Edit: quote wasn't working. :oops:
Last edited by Lashmar on Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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