The Black Vault

event_horizon wrote:If "God" has "unlimited power," then why does "He" allow "Satan" to run rampant on "His" creation?

I'm not so sure there is even a literal Satan, or if Satan is just a metaphor for evil.

In any case, God is allowing human beings time to develop morally, intellectually, and spiritually--while leaving room for humans to move either towards or away from Him using their own free will.

God isn't Superman or a genie who flies around all day rescuing kittens from trees and granting people wishes. He's interested in human beings becoming mature, wise, intelligent and good moral agents who will accept His forgiveness, love, and company.

Sleepwalk wrote:Besides, God is more interested in human beings coming to know, love, and follow Him, not whether or not they're comfortable here on earth. However, a person who knows, is close to, and loves God--the Good--will of course be fulfilled beyond the scope of anything found here on earth: food, sex, entertainment, beauty, money, comedy, etc. Believers will find comfort here on earth spiritually and when their body perishes, God will take them. I think what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:7 is if you genuinly ask and seek God, then He will make Himself known to you in one way or another--or He'll help you. But that doesn't mean He will make Himself known to you or help you in a way that you'd expect.

event_horizon wrote:Not sure what any of this has to do with the statistical analyzing of prayer.

In other words, I don't expect God to grant wishes in the juvenile fashion you're thinking of. Why do you?

Sleepwalk wrote:I'm not so sure there is even a literal Satan, or if Satan is just a metaphor for evil.

According to your previous statement, it sounds every bit literal.

Sleepwalk wrote:In any case, God is allowing human beings time to develop morally, intellectually, and spiritually--while leaving room for humans to move either towards or away from Him using their own free will.

I don't see anything to "move towards," so I have no movement "towards" or "away."

Sleepwalk wrote:God isn't Superman or a genie who flies around all day rescuing kittens from trees and granting people wishes. He's interested in human beings becoming mature, wise, intelligent and good moral agents who will accept His forgiveness, love, and company.

No? What about parting the Red Sea to rescue "His" people from the Egyptians? Your "God" only seems to be "Superman or a genie" during times when no recording devices were available.

Sleepwalk wrote:In other words, I don't expect God to grant wishes in the juvenile fashion you're thinking of. Why do you?

I have no idea what gave that impression. I didn't mention anything about a "fashion" of prayer, juvenile or otherwise. This is about prayer in general.

event_horizon wrote:According to your previous statement, it sounds every bit literal.

I was making a point. God is answering prayers, but He's not going to answer everyone's prayers.

I don't see anything to "move towards," so I have no movement "towards" or "away."

Blind men can't see the world around them either. I guess that means the world doesn't exist.

No? What about parting the Red Sea to rescue "His" people from the Egyptians?

Moses parted the red sea.

But God helped Moses in order to ultimately pave the way towards salvation and higher enlightenment. That goal has been fulfilled and now it's up to us to take God's hand.

Your "God" only seems to be "Superman or a genie" during times when no recording devices were available.

Then how do you know about it?

Sleepwalk wrote:In other words, I don't expect God to grant wishes in the juvenile fashion you're thinking of. Why do you?

I didn't mention anything about a "fashion" of prayer, juvenile or otherwise. This is about prayer in general.

You just seem to have a really childish view of God, which is probably one of the reasons why you don't believe in God.

I wouldn't believe in God either if I thought He were a genie in the sky that granted every person's wish.

Sleepwalk wrote:Blind men can't see the world around them either. I guess that means the world doesn't exist.

Retarded people can't distinguish the difference between reality and fiction -- that doesn't mean fiction is real.

Sleepwalk wrote:Moses parted the red sea.

But God helped Moses in order to ultimately pave the way towards salvation and higher enlightenment. That goal has been fulfilled and now it's up to us to take God's hand.

It's still a contradiction to your statement that "God isn't Superman or a genie." And at the same time you believe in talking snakes; talking burning bushes; a man surviving in the belly of a whale for 3 days; a single man that can build a wooden boat that can house and support millions of animals, never mind the complications of trying to round them all up. Sounds like a genie at work to me. Also sounds like a bunch of children's fairy tales.

And here you speak to me about being "juvenile" and having a "childish view?"

Sleepwalk wrote:Then how do you know about it?

From your book of fairy tales of course.

Sleepwalk wrote:You just seem to have a really childish view of God, which is probably one of the reasons why you don't believe in God.

Again, I have no idea what gave you that impression. You'll have to elaborate on exactly what gave you that impression.

Sleepwalk wrote:I wouldn't believe in God either if I thought He were a genie in the sky that granted every person's wish.

Nope, not every person's "wish," but...according to your Bible, any person that truly believes in your "God" and prays is supposed to have their prayers answered:

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 21:21
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Believers will understand this and unbelievers either won't, or, will just assume it's a lie. No matter.

I know what I'm talking about when it comes to prayer and surely, so does any believer.

Every prayer I have ever prayed--when I am filled with the Holy Spirit--has not only come to pass, but in most cases has come to pass right away. One time I prayed for something and the phone rang not 5 minutes later with exactly what I prayed for. But that wouldn't stand on its own; there are several other instances where something similar occured.

All believers know the feeling. You can feel it when you are filled with the Holy Spirit and you know when you aren't. I have prayed countless prayers. All heartfelt prayers have gone answered, many times not like I anticipated, not as fast as I wanted, etc. Those are the ones I prayed because I prayed out of an obligation to do so but was not filled with the Spirit.

It is impossible to explain but I am being utterly and completely honest. Since my conversion to Christ, I can probably count the number of Holy-Spirit-filled prayers on 2 hands. Those were answered immediately and I got exactly what I prayed for; and I could tell I was filled with the Spirit because I could sense that my prayer was not in the form of a question, but was instead in the form of a confident gratefulness, because I already knew it was going to happen. All the others, some were answered like I wanted and as fast as I wanted, but most were answered long after the prayer, and not necessarily the way I personally desired.

What we have to understand is. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are connected to God and truth. At that point, you couldn't pray for something that wouldn't come to pass, even if you wanted to, because the Holy Spirit is actually communicating through you at the same time--basically telling you this is going to happen just as you prayed for it. But if you pray and you are not filled with the Spirit--which is ok and you are obligated to do so anyway--your prayer is going to be subjected to your desire vs. God's will and the prayers of all those around you which may be in direct conflict with what you pray for.

Does that make sense?

Like I said, the believers will say, "Yep, I know what you mean," and the unbelievers will discard this as utter nonsense if not an outright lie.

As an aside, Jesus laid hands on the apostles which permanently filled them with the Holy Spirit. What an amazing thing, eh? You believers out there--you know the feeling. That supremely confident, euphoric, powerful, Nirvana-ish feeling... which comes to us sparingly and fleetingly. Imagine feeling like that all the time! Wow. That's why their words are considered God-inspired and inerrant. They were permanently connected with God and truth and couldn't have lied, erred, or acted against the will of God... even if they wanted to.

I can picture the Atheists thinking, "Ok great! So if you're filled with this Holy Spirit thingy, you get anything you want? Cool! Then the next time you are 'filled with the Spirit-thingy' you should squeeze in a request for ten million dollars before you end the prayer!"

I'm sorry, but, it just doesn't work that way. When you are filled with the Spirit, you aren't even in complete control of your thoughts, because you are under the power of God. You change from a human being just asking for something to come to pass, to a subject of God who is connected to God through the Holy Spirit, and is just receiving the truth of what is going to transpire, and verbally repeating it in the form of a prayer in the name of Christ. Think of it as a string of Christmas lights praying to be turned on. Mehhhh, their prayer may go answered eventually. But if the string of lights is plugged in, then they no longer ask to be turned on, but instead know that it has or will come to pass. As a believer, you just have to be "plugged in." And that's the job of the Holy Spirit and it is not something that we can consciously control.

It's impossible to fully and satisfactorily explain and you just won't understand until you live it. And I hope you all do get to live it because that will inevitably mean you joined the family. God bless.

Your "God" supposedly has a "divine plan." You're suggesting that "God" changes "His plans" just because you ask "Him" to. Do you really think you're that special?

Maybe next time I'm at work I'll ask my boss if we can get a stripper pole in the lobby...I'm sure that'll go over real well -- he likes me and will do anything I ask, because I'm special.

event_horizon wrote:Your "God" supposedly has a "divine plan." You're suggesting that "God" changes "His plans" just because you ask "Him" to. Do you really think you're that special?

Maybe next time I'm at work I'll ask my boss if we can get a stripper pole in the lobby...I'm sure that'll go over real well -- he likes me and will do anything I ask, because I'm special.

This is an attack on a straw god.

A plan can be conditional, like a program with if/then/else statements.

at1with0 wrote:

event_horizon wrote:Your "God" supposedly has a "divine plan." You're suggesting that "God" changes "His plans" just because you ask "Him" to. Do you really think you're that special?

Maybe next time I'm at work I'll ask my boss if we can get a stripper pole in the lobby...I'm sure that'll go over real well -- he likes me and will do anything I ask, because I'm special.

This is an attack on a straw god.

A plan can be conditional, like a program with if/then/else statements.

god is supposed to know what's in our hearts ... he'd know if you were
joking , sarcastic or just being quizzical . if/ then/ else is
multidimensional and subject to be acted on ? a crossroads not difinitve . e.v. might be correct
'if its in gods plan for you to have a stripper pole '

The decision has already been made