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Postby Aquatank » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:02 pm

What is it that justifies the first murder of person in war, what justifies that first killing? What logic is used to defend murdering someone who hasn't murdered or hit anyone else? What in the world justifies punishing a person or group by Murdering someone who has not committed an act of violence. What justifies that first strike in a war, that first punch in a fight. Absolutely nothing justifies it, and I say now nothing justifies retaliation either. Why because trying to justify it sounds like the talk of 2nd graders after a schoolyard fight. "Such and such started it","I don't like such and such' face", "Looked at me funny." "Said this and that." Both are at fault for the violence but those who cause the most damage are responsible for most of the damage, why did it start, because someone was foolish enough to engage or violence, and the other person was too foolish to walk away or just take it and then leave. Losing "Restraint" from retaliating or starting a fight , is losing Control over oneself and is Weakness. Preaching for War is preaching for Weakness.
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:00 pm

Aquatank you confuse several things in your mind, and like everything else said to you, it falls on deaf ears. First, you take the premise Israel and Hamas are both on equal ground, they are equal aggressors, and they are far from equal in terms of aggression. You also confuse the term retaliation, with defense, as if Israels response is revenge, not defense from further rockets. Taking out the tunnels and the rocket launching spots is not retaliation, it is defense to thwart off further launches. 3000 rockets were launched and Israel used the iron dome to shoot many of them down, what if they did not have that? You totally ignore the Hamas tactic of human shields and even have stated, it is only an excuse. You have been proven otherwise. You keep insisting using logic that has no comparison, either you are just a Hamas sympathizer or totally naive concerning these acts of war, and terrorist affront to Israel.

Israel has destroyed 31 tunnels Aguatank, please enlighten us all what the use of those tunnels was for? Secondly Israel has captured over 3000 unused rockets, and have found them in schools and other places where civilians were shields, please explain that?
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Postby frrostedman » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:06 pm

Aquatank wrote:What is it that justifies the first murder of person in war, what justifies that first killing? What logic is used to defend murdering someone who hasn't murdered or hit anyone else? What in the world justifies punishing a person or group by Murdering someone who has not committed an act of violence.

When I was about 8 years old, during a visit to the dentist, he held my chin up with his hand to get a better look inside my mouth. He acted funny and looked at me strangely. He kept rubbing my neck, just below my chin. He talked to his nurse quietly. She came and rubbed the same area. They proceeded with the cleaning of my teeth and that was it. But after they talked to my Dad, he explained:

The dentist felt what he thinks is a large cyst under your chin. He thinks we should get it checked out."

Not long after that I was under the knife and a large cyst was removed. I remember what the doctor said. "This cyst is benign. But it's best to remove it because it's better to be safe than sorry. The cyst could end up malignant later."

The point is this. Palestinians that embrace the radical, violent teachings of Hamas, whether they have killed someone or not, are a constant threat to do so. Should the cyst be removed, or should we wait until it becomes a cancer, spreads and possibly kills us?

Using your logic, a country is not allowed to neutralize a single individual on the enemy force, unless that individual has killed someone first. In your head, visualize this tactic. Carry it out all the way to the end. No war has ever, or will ever be fought in such a backward way in which a country places no value on its own citizens and waits for them to be killed before it acts in their defense.
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Postby orangetom1999 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:09 pm

from page 2 of this thread..


>Re: Gaza slaughter

Unread postby Aquatank » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:19 am

The problem in the Israeli Palestinian conflict is the govt. nation state Israel. Step back from the whose land it is argument, and all that and we what we get to see is a vicious cycle of violence and oppression fueling violent resistance fueling more violence and oppression. What we see the violent resistance do is acts of murder that do not exceed regular annual murder rates in some US cities, the nation state of Israel's response to the blowback from the resistance is wildly disproportional.



This is a textbook post of today's intellectuals and public school education..on emotions...a television and movie education in emotions and blame game thinking...'Victimization."

A war or fight is dirty dirty dirty business. Always has been and always will be.

And then someone wants to come in here with this nonsense....in an obvious "Killing Spree" and wants to debate "disproportional." You have to go to emotional public school to get this naturally giftedly dumb.

People are killing each other out there and you want to discuss how to put the boxing gloves one side to make it "Fair" "Proportionate??" Only public school can dumb down a people so far that they think this way.

You go in and finish it or you will be doing it again ..in perpetuity..forever. What are some of you thinking.

This is the major problem with our military today. May as well not have one if you are going to put the gloves on them and send them out to be killed properly by the "rules of Proportionality...so as not to be disproportionate.

How naturally and giftedly stupid can one get..this is not thinking..it is politic...it is public education.

I am not pro Israel..but I do know one thing...What would happen if Israel took the boxing/rules gloves off and went bare knuckled?? I don t think some of you understand this while trying to put the straight jacket on one side and not on the other.

At the same time I know that the Palestinians under Hamas have the gloves off. They are going bare knuckled.

It is not Israel's fault that they don't know how to form or strategize war properly.

If you want to shoot indiscriminately with unguided rockets, mortars, and whatever you can muster..don't whine and complain when it comes back to you.



I do not believe Israel has any Biblical claim to that land whatsoever. They do have a claim by right of conquest. And they are going to have to fight to keep it. We need to stay out of it..on both sides.

Also I am with FrostedMan. America has given millions and millions to the Palestinians in aid and they have used and misused much of it to built tunnels and keep the war going with Israel...not to help their people. So too with the other Arab nations. Many of them too have kept the war going..not helped the Palestinian people to increase and better their lot.

I do know that to date..Israel has not taken off the boxing gloves as the saying goes. If they ever do..it is going to be a very different fight that what you see.

I also know what would happen if the Palestinians and other Arab nations win out...it will either be a wholesale slaughter of the Jews or it will be the "Sampson Option." And most of you out here doing the whining and moaning about disproportionate...haven't a clue what the "Sampson Optioin " is. IF you did you would stop your whining and pay attention.

If and when "The Sampson Option " takes place and I think eventually it will...the west is going to know about Armageddon...and worse...also about disproportionate.

Good grief...whiners and moaners...Israel has not yet taken off the gloves of civilization. Hamas has. What are some of you thinking??

In case some of you are so touchy feely that you are also so blindsided...this fight has also spread to other nations. Someone is carrying this fight to the Jews to other nations..not their own nation and attacking Jews in the streets and in their homes. This is going to break out into killings in other nations...assasinations and slaughters...disproportionate....unarmed people..unarmed Jews. Eventually it will be unarmed Christians as this thing spreads.

What are some of you doing or thinking?? It does not take a rocket genius to figure out this trend line.
Your own media and leadership are lying and deceiving you on this trend line to come ..for political reasons.

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Postby gudskepteacal » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:08 pm

While I do not share orangetom's vociferousness against pro Palestinian points of view, it seems if rockets were not incoming from Gaza there would be no inflated casualty rate to rail against. Israel does not actively target areas of high innocent civilians and the HAMAS-P.A. integrated govt. is a band of cowards for using children as human shields. Those opposed; what kill ratio would be right, for right here right now?
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Postby frrostedman » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:17 pm

Some expert on the Middle East said the other day on the radio.... "If Israel's goal is to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, then they're doing a pretty poor job of it."

The gentleman was pointing out the obvious fact that if Israel truly wanted the Palestinian civilians killed, they could easily do WAY more killing of them than they are. That said, it becomes clear that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, which greatly diminishes the talking points of the anti-Israel mob.
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Postby greeney2 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:50 pm

Hamas wasted no time in firing rockets at the end of the 72 hour cease fire, and even violated it with rockets several hours before it ended. They had no problem telling Israel they would keep firing them. all of you who have any doubt Israel is justified in defending themselves further, need to take a good look at the facts.
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Postby gudskepteacal » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:23 pm

I think I understand your point of view, Aquatank. Violence is wrong and the death of just one innocent in war reflects badly on all of us; it casts humankind in a dark, destructive, unflattering light. I think very few wish for war and the vast majority of people worldwide yearn for peace; in a utopian world, there would be no unnecessary hunger, suffering or death. Unfortunately hunger, suffering and death remain a constant in this world. Wiki answers has the number of African children who die of starvation and malnutrition each year at 17,000,000. That breaks down to over 46,500 per day...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Afri ... starvation

My point is we don't live in that utopia and the globalist elites are very pleased to see everyone playing their part, as per the script/plan. In a perfect world, we would all be up in arms and in the streets continuously to push these elites to solve the previously mentioned catastrophe; stopping only when starvation and malnutrition have been eradicated from all continents of the globe. These power elites, masters of the universe, leaders of industry, controllers of the message prefer their own version of utopia, however, and, instead of working to solve the problems of violence and suffering, are the very ones who create the chaos, fund the turmoil and supply the weapons of human destruction then turn around and splash the whole thing on countless media outlets, establish the dialectic argument and corral everyone into the communitarian synthesis. That's my personal c.t. of course, but, you must admit, it's very peculiar that 20 yrs. ago over 50 companies had part ownership of media outlets and now it's down to 5 multinationals.

Because the utopia we desire won't be manifesting anytime soon and because Hamas has repeatedly stated their intention of Israel's complete annihilation, I cannot fault Israel for doing what we would be doing if someone attacked the U.S. Are they consciously and intentionally being bloodthirsty and indifferent in their retaliations? I DK for sure and, if so, will have to answer for it at some point in time. As frosty posted, however, their intention is clearly not the indiscriminant slaughter of innocent civilians. War is War ; another fact of our world

Here are three international organizations who charge Israel with that very thing though; from Zerohedge...

"United Nations, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch: Israel Is Targeting CIVILIANS In Gaza
George Washington's pictureSubmitted by George Washington on 08/07/2014 16:47 -0400

IsraelMiddle Eastnational securityNew York Times

.

inShare.13
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Preface - related news from this week:

•Prominent Jewish Leader: Israel Intentionally Massacred Civilians in 1948 to Terrorize the Population
•Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times
•Prominent Israelis: Israel’s Treatment of Palestinians Is Apartheid


Update: Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu has asked the U.S. for help in avoiding war crime charges.

Amnesty International just released a report stating:


An immediate investigation is needed into mounting evidence that the Israel Defense Forces launched apparently deliberate attacks against hospitals and health professionals in Gaza, which have left six medics dead, said Amnesty International as it released disturbing testimonies from doctors, nurses, and ambulance personnel working in the area.



***



“Even more alarming is the mounting evidence that the Israeli army has targeted health facilities or professionals. Such attacks are absolutely prohibited by international law and would amount to war crimes. They only add to the already compelling argument that the situation should be referred to the International Criminal Court.”

Human Rights Watch released a report this week headlined, “Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians“, stating:


Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.



***



The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) reported that on July 25, a Red Crescent volunteer [the equivalent of the Red Cross] was mortally wounded in an Israeli attack in Khuza’a, and other volunteers who tried to rescue him were fired on. Under the laws of war, medical workers are civilians who may not be targeted for attack.



***



Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.



***



“The horrors of war are bad enough for civilians even when all sides abide by the law,” [Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa director] said. “But it’s abhorrent that Israeli forces are making matters even worse by so blatantly violating the laws of war designed to spare civilians.”...


Keep Reading: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-0 ... ng-civilia
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:01 am

The bottom line is First Hamas launches from populated area on purpose, probably clears out and tells those around "do not leave your homes". Secondly, they know they can only lob rockets that have no real pinpoint guidance on them, but Isreal can, and they can also shoot some down. Consequently Isreal hits the exact GPS location the rockets came from. Last but not least, the world gets up in arms over all the innocents that died, and films show dead people. I watched one news where Palestinians, picked up and carried several children limp in their arms with cloths over there neck or other places, and you could see no blood whatsoever, it looked totally staged and fake to me.

So the question is, who is counting all these dead bodies, and how accurate is any of it? It is no secret they want people to die, so they can get the world in an uproar, it is part of the game they play. When does 1 or 2 become 1 or 2 dozen? Yet I watched a video taken from a hotel window over several days of rockets being set up under a canopy, in the middle of a business district. They remove the cover, launched the rockets, and then you could see the strike against the launch site. No doubt surrounding people died but who is doing the counting. Hamas?
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Postby orangetom1999 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:23 am

gudskepteacal wrote:While I do not share orangetom's vociferousness against pro Palestinian points of view, it seems if rockets were not incoming from Gaza there would be no inflated casualty rate to rail against. Israel does not actively target areas of high innocent civilians and the HAMAS-P.A. integrated govt. is a band of cowards for using children as human shields. Those opposed; what kill ratio would be right, for right here right now?


Gudskepteacal,

It is not about rockets per se...but also I can remember when people in Israel were going about their daily business and lives while getting on a public bus to have it blown up and their lives lost. I don't agree with this as well.

This same pattern eventually spread to England and London if I remember the pattern and history. It is coming here to America..and I don't agree with it. I don't have to be particularly smart to figure out this pattern of operation.

At the same time .. I know enough history to remember that it was the Jews who blew up the King David Hotel in 1946 where the British housed their officer corps. This was Menachem Begin's group the Irgun. If the Jews want to resort to the type of terrorism that the Palestinians are doing ..they can do quiet well at it. Their ability to do this terror goes all the way back to the Ancient Romans and for whom they caused a lot of grief..until the Romans tired of it and destroyed the Jewish land, kingdom and temple by 70 ad under Titus Caesar. The Jews are not strangers to terrorist tactics. That is my point..about not taking the gloves off on the parts of the Jews. Most people in their provincialness do not remember or know this history. The Jews can do this quite well if they so choose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

These loosely affiliated mafia type gangs for profit latter became what is today the IDF. Get a clue people.

My point in all this "Victimization " nonsense is that if the Israelis wanted to go this route..they are quite familiar with it and can easily take the gloves off..and go bare-knuckled. They have a lot of experience and pedigree in it going back to the Ancient Romans and before.

It was bad news in Jerusalem for a Roman soldier alone to be caught drunk about town..they were likely to be robbed and their throat cut. The Romans tired of this conduct by the Jewish factions. You can find some of the history of these Jewish gangs and zealots fighting amongst themselves..in Flavius Josephus and his account of what happened just before the Romans arrived and during the siege of Jerusalem for three and a half years.

What the Romans found when they entered the City of Jerusalem...after the siege of three and a half years which sent them berserk enough to destroy the city and the temple.

Once again..if the Jews wanted to fight like do the Palestinians today..it would be a very different war/conflict.


At the same time ...find out ..if you do not know...what is the Sampson Option. To learn about disproportionate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

The intent of the Israelis is that if they are about to be overrun..they are going to nuke everyone and everything and take everyone with them..including themselves..as did Sampson in bringing down the temple with all the Philistines and himself.

Before they had the "Sampson Option" of nuclear weapons..they had the "Masada Option" where they planned to commit suicide rather than be overrun as is the history against the Romans in the siege of Masada.

They are not going back into the camps nor do they intend to be slaughtered as in history past. I believe they will carry this out...this "Sampson Option. I do not believe this is a bluff.

I believe they have teams of people specially dedicated and specially trained/qualified..to remove their weapons, deliver them, arm them. I also believe they intend to settle olde scores if it comes to this..meaning some places in Europe are targeted...and they can deliver these weapons by submarine launched cruise missile.

If you think this is idle talk...I know that in the 1970s when the Yom Kippur War took place and the Israelis were caught by surprise on the Yom Kippur Holiday..they were in fact on their way to carry out the Sampson Option. They were arming these weapons and our own leadership knew this...under Richard Nixon.

It was Richard Nixon who made the decision to expediently deliver arms to Israel to turn the tide ...not for victory -per se..but to prevent nuclear war on the part of the Israelis. Very few people today know that Richard Nixon prevented a Nuclear War. He is only remembered in the history books for the Watergate Scandal.
But I know this history and what he did.

I was in those days stationed with the US Air Force in Keflavik, Iceland and we were gearing up for the arrival of brand new F4 E model Phantom fighters..from the factory assembly lines at McDonald Douglas Aircraft. We were overnight told to pack up our mock up gear and tech manuals..they were being put on Jet transports and going to Israel.

Israel got our new jet fighters...and we got ten year olde worn out airplanes from a training base in Arizona.

Someone out there knew the Israelis were not bluffing....and worked hard to prevent a nuclear holocaust.

I do not believe for one minute that we have such intelligence in leadership positions today.

It is obvious that we have political expediency today..not leadership or leaders..and I mean both political parties.

Keep thinking what you are thinking gudskeptical...sooner of later that whole area is going to be a glass parking lot.

Particularly with the ignorance fostered by psuedo intelligence and drama queens today..verses real knowledge and information's....even History.


I don't have a dog in this fight..not interested. I stated that I am not pro Israel..nor am I pro Palestinian.

I am anti ignorance.

There is something going on here..much much bigger than what you see and hear in the news. Something no one wants us to know or even to be be aware . Our leadership and the news media are in on the ignorance and it is carefully cultivated to keep us ignorant.

Think..do not emote here.


What on earth do you think Benjamin Netanyahu is saying when he tells our own President and leadership not to "Second Guess Him??" Why would anyone ever want that office and responsibility...24/7?? The responsibility of carrying out the Sampson Option..or even in the olde days..the Masada Option.

Remember Benjamin Netanyahu..lost his brother, Yonatan Netanyahu, in the Entebbe raid back in 1976 to get back/Rescue Jews from the Hijacking to Uganda of that airliner. Do you think for one minute that he has any illusions about this responsibilities???

Think..Don't emote. Someone has spent a lot of time and monies to put people on the emotional bandwagon and has obviously been very successful at it. I just don't buy into it ..on either side.


Thanks to all for their posts,
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